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  1. Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    I can agree with much of what you say, until this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gmarais66
    Everyone also understands that Gardy led some marginal teams to the playoffs in the 2000s, .
    I have to take exception to this statement. Here is what bothers me and a lot of people about the current "Gardy has nothing to work with" train of thought -- the flipside of the "no manager can win with this team" argument is "no manager could have lost with the earlier teams" and if we had a WS Ring in there, I think this whole debate would look different.

    Here is what we had in the 2000s, not to mention some weak AL Central competition most of those years:

    - Joe Mauer, 3 batting titles and 3 Gold Gloves
    - Justin Morneau, MVP 2006,
    - Mauer, MVP 2009
    - Johan Santana, Cy Young 2004, 2006,
    - Joe Nathan 260 saves in 7 seasons
    - Torii Hunter, perennial gold glove

    Ex-Twin Honor roll:
    - Matt Garza, Delmon Young, ALCS MVPs
    - RA Dickey, 2012 Cy Young

    Michael Cuddyer, 2013 NL batting champ (let's hope!)
  2. gmarais66's Avatar
    There's a lot of negativity directed at Gardy, which I understand, because people need someone to blame for three dreadful seasons. However, if we're honest, it wouldn't matter if Joe Madden, Tony La Russa or Casey Stengel, brought back from the grave, were the Twins' manager during the past three seasons. The results wouldn't be much different. No manager or coach on the planet can turn Liam Hendriks into Justin Verlander or Trevor Plouffe into Evan Longoria. A manager can only work with what he has and Gardy has been given nothing to work with, especially in terms of pitching. Despite the Twins' horrendous play, Gardy remains one of the most respected managers in the game, among his peers. His hands have been tied for three seasons and everyone understands that. Everyone also understands that Gardy led some marginal teams to the playoffs in the 2000s, which I think is much more revealing about his managerial skills than three seasons with no talent. I'd like to see him stay, because given some talent, I think he can lead the Twins back to the playoffs.
  3. clank2000's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone
    That could be, or it could be after only 22 months back from semi-retirement, Ryan is admitting the rebuild isn't done, and he prefers to have a tried and proven manager to lead our beloved Twins back to past glories.
    OK, second time you've said that. Define "tried and proven."
  4. VandyTwinsFan's Avatar
    I agree with beckmt. I'm indifferent in regards to Gardy as a manager (I do love his hat kicking rants, though), but I feel that if the club is going to be bringing in new/young guys and they're trying to instill a new attitude...then a new manager is a good way to do just that. It's not that I don't think Gardy could do a decent job. It's a necessary statement to the team, the staff, and the fans that things are going to change. And if he stays...the roster just becomes another one of Gardy's teams. Bring on a new era of Twins baseball.
  5. beckmt's Avatar
    I also have read the same comments about the players not responding. I am a Gardy supporter, but feel a new voice is needed.
  6. Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Gardenhire for 2014 is a mistake. For beyond. A greater mistake. He is a mistaken manager--to put it nicely.
  7. h2oface's Avatar
    I think Gardenhire would be perfect for the Cubs. Then both managerial and Cubs' trends could continue without pause.
  8. Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by LastOnePicked
    Setting aside the team's dismal record, the players have seemed almost entirely unresponsive to coaching this year, despite claims that they like him as manager.
    I don't know how many times I've got to beat it into these guys' heads seems to be Gardenhire's most common lament. So yeah, he's lost the clubhouse. Hard to get that back once you've lost it.
  9. Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by LastOnePicked
    Would love for Ryan to comment on this. Hope that Mackey or some other columnist gets to ask him about this apparent "slip" of the plans for 2014.This just seems like bad business. Setting aside the team's dismal record, the players have seemed almost entirely unresponsive to coaching this year, despite claims that they like him as manager. To give Gardy an extension now seems like a reward for a job poorly done. Of course, "bad business" has become a hallmark of this organization in the last few years. Batting practice tickets, anyone?
  10. LastOnePicked's Avatar
    Would love for Ryan to comment on this. Hope that Mackey or some other columnist gets to ask him about this apparent "slip" of the plans for 2014.

    This just seems like bad business. Setting aside the team's dismal record, the players have seemed almost entirely unresponsive to coaching this year, despite claims that they like him as manager. To give Gardy an extension now seems like a reward for a job poorly done. Of course, "bad business" has become a hallmark of this organization in the last few years. Batting practice tickets, anyone?
  11. howieramone's Avatar
    That could be, or it could be after only 22 months back from semi-retirement, Ryan is admitting the rebuild isn't done, and he prefers to have a tried and proven manager to lead our beloved Twins back to past glories.
  12. LaBombo's Avatar
    So he's now semi-officially the only non-expansion manager besides TK in the past thirty years to return for another year after three consecutive 90 loss seasons.

    Put another way, since Gardenhire, to put it hyper-politely, lacks TK's postseason success, the front office is admitting something approximating this:

    It took what was a contending core at the end of the past decade, and added tens of millions to the available payroll budget with new stadium revenue.

    With those resources, they built a major league roster so dreadfully bad that the last manager to get a free pass for so many losses was managing a historically awful expansion franchise.

    That's Ryan's admission with the resigning of Gardenhire. The Twins' MLB talent level the past three seasons has stood at the level of a really, really bad expansion team.
  13. howieramone's Avatar
    I really don't care one way or the other, but it makes no sense to fire a tried and proven manager. I saw a rumor that King Theo may have Gardy and Girardi on a short list.
  14. Kwak's Avatar
    I too would lie to thank LastOnePicked for writing a piece to allow all of us to comment. When an opinion is stated that hits close-to-home the two sides emerge--The True Believers and The Dark Side. As I expected the usual suspects have weighed-in. I agree with much of what you post, though the elements aren't as sinister as some claim.
    Gardy/Andy Formula I actually think it is Ryan's Formula, and these two are simply "True Believers" of it. Those that weren't "True Believers" (e.g. Molitor) are bilged. The GM was informed "this is a business and an acceptable profit is required. Construct a plan to operate the entire team on a budget." Through the years he likely noticed that there are a few pitchers who enjoy a disproportionate amount of success given their limited skills. Ryan simply decided to contruct a rotation of that type (5 people) but include one dominant, strike-out pitcher (closer). He could (and maybe now is in the process of changing) to try to operate with 4 or 5 strikeout guys in the rotation--but that must have less than 5 years of MLB service because salaries rise sharply after three years and explode after 6 years.

    Good Teammates and Nice Guys is actually a subset of Making Them Fit the Mold. This is similar to many other organizations which see very different from a baseball team except that they too are made up of people and a selection rubric is used for them as well.
    Consider other "Minnesota" stuff. Examples: University's hockey team (for many decades) is nearly 100% made up of Minnesota residents. Minnesota Nice--it is repeated endlessly.
    I consider such practices "Marketing"--give the customer what he wants. If the public wants to see choir boys--well the Twins will see to it that the team is full of them. If a lesser-skilled guy but with a dirty uniform is preferred to a better-skilled guy the "steps-out-of-bounds"--you get my drift. It also helps that those guys cost less (supply and demand) than the more skilled player. That concept also fits the business plan.

    The teams are not biased, the community is. There was a comment earlier that was to refute any claim of racial bias--but sadly the comment showed he author's "Whiteness". Black ballplayers are African-American, they were born here like (I presume) we posters. Dominicans, the rest of the Caribbean islands, and South Americans are Latin players--even if their skin is as darkly complected as an African-American. These are two separate demographics and it is a mistake for the White American to lump-them-together.
  15. Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
    I really like this article because it makes one think. Not such a bad thing.

    Got to believe they would have liked power arms, but they went off on their own tangent. Remember that they were high on drafting tall pitchers. Who came up with that one? Sure didn't arrive at that conclusion by looking at Johan.

    And sometimes it would be nice to see someone shoot their mouth off occasionally, Dan Gladden-like.
  16. Rick Niedermann's Avatar
    I just don't like the race card thing. The Twins have always had a philosophy of signing the best "signable player". (ex: Ben Revere) They were a little slow getting established in Venezuela but have been catching up. Years ago the Senators-Twins had a great pipeline in Cuba until Castro shut that off. And some guys just won't play in Minnesota. In 1987 they traded for Don Baylor down the stretch. In 1991 they signed Chili Davis. Santana wanted to go to a bigger market. Plain and simple. But it was the Twins who gave him the shot to do the great things he did. And last but not least, sometimes a white guy is just the better player.
  17. johnnydakota's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Seth Stohs;bt5569]If he was saying he wasn't going to sign for less than $120 million and saying hat he didn't intend to stay... yup. The Twins offered Santana $100 million. They also gave Torii Hunter $42 million at the same time in his career that they gave Joe Mauer his $42 million deal. (which was pretty much the same deal they gave to Santana at the same time in his career).[/QUOTE]

    they failed to give johan a 6 year 20 million dollar deal but went 7 years at 23 per for joe? im not saying they goose step to the mound or any thing , but i think you see some slights. Santana should have won 3 cy youngs , and was young and the best pitcher at the time. just like joe was young and the best catcher at the time.

    As all twins fans i hope we get another ring in the near future , and yes i have been a negitive nell, but when we do do things that are positive i am right there cheering ...but i do not know how you can look at this off season and think that the only thing acomlished was cutting payroll, we started off building for the future , then went into the smoke and mirrors mold, a conflicting off season , then to have the front office claim we will contend this year, they lost all credibility
  18. LastOnePicked's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa
    I'm am absolutely convinced that Gardenhire's long-term approach ("Keep playing hard boys, we'll get 'em tomorrow), is a significant part of the success that the Twins enjoyed during the 2000's. He generally did not allow them to get too high or too low -- keeping them on an "even keel" with an appreciation for the length of the season. I do believe that it helped them down the stretch.

    But I also believe that it puts them in middle gear and that they were unable to shift out of it when it came to the playoffs -- when time is NOT on your side and there isn't always a game tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, the lack of power pitching and the gaps in the line-up were also a big part of those losses. But sometimes "little engines" do win, even in the playoffs, but they have to have the right mindset. And I just don't think that Gardenhire and the other leaders on this team (whoever they may be cuz I'm not sure I've ever been able to identify them well) were able to shift from a long-season view to the urgency of the playoffs.

    And in a sense, I wonder if the organization's current stance isn't somewhat like that. They were used to sustained long-term success in the 2000's (albeit no playoff wins) and now that they have had a disastrous two seasons, I think they are still stuck in 2nd gear. I hope that they can shift to 1st as some of the prospects develop so that the Twins may eventually be competitive in the post-season but I'm not sure that it'll happen especially if 2nd gear (no substantial changes in the organization) eventually produces regular season competitiveness.
    Thanks, JB. I've read your posts, and have always appreciated your insights. This was no exception. You added something really important that I passed over, and a good reminder that the Twins Way was also responsible for some regular season successes.
  19. LastOnePicked's Avatar
    Thanks for the thoughtful comments, gang. I'd just reiterate that in no way am I accusing the team of racism. I have not heard any members of the organization abuse anyone on the team or any potential prospects on the basis of cultural identity -- ethnic or otherwise. I am, however, leveling the charges or groupthink and organizational stagnation, which may have the effect of limiting contributions and participation from perceived "outsiders." That the Twins signed Sano was clearly a smart business and baseball decision, and by all accounts the result of a well-constructed relationship between Radcliffe (is that right?) and Sano's contacts and family. I appluded that signing then, and continue to hope for more solid acquisitions.

    But this reminds me of what we see at some of our state's colleges. Some have been great at getting international students to come here for an education. But many of the students don't stay very long, and those that go sometimes refer to being treated like a constant outsider, like a curiosity, like they are supposed to fit in quickly or risk sticking out. I'm just hoping that this is not what some of our prospects have experienced, or will experience. It takes skilled management to do two things at once: help outsiders acclimate to the group and let them feel like can still be who they are. I worry when I read about how Ortiz, Bartlett and Hardy have talked about how the Twins have tried to change them, and not to the benefit of their play. This kind of behavior is a hallmark of organizations that see no need and have no desire to change.

    And, if the last two seasons have made even one thing clear, it's that the Twins MUST change. And quickly. As always, I'll be rooting for them, even when I'm frustrated by what I see.
  20. Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota
    So your telling me if Kevin Slowey put up Santana like numbers , the twins would have traded him for a handful of magic beans like they recieved for Johan?
    If he was saying he wasn't going to sign for less than $120 million and saying hat he didn't intend to stay... yup. The Twins offered Santana $100 million. They also gave Torii Hunter $42 million at the same time in his career that they gave Joe Mauer his $42 million deal. (which was pretty much the same deal they gave to Santana at the same time in his career).
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