I too would lie to thank LastOnePicked for writing a piece to allow all of us to comment. When an opinion is stated that hits close-to-home the two sides emerge--The True Believers and The Dark Side. As I expected the usual suspects have weighed-in. I agree with much of what you post, though the elements aren't as sinister as some claim. Gardy/Andy Formula I actually think it is Ryan's Formula, and these two are simply "True Believers" of it. Those that weren't "True Believers" (e.g. Molitor) are bilged. The GM was informed "this is a business and an acceptable profit is required. Construct a plan to operate the entire team on a budget." Through the years he likely noticed that there are a few pitchers who enjoy a disproportionate amount of success given their limited skills. Ryan simply decided to contruct a rotation of that type (5 people) but include one dominant, strike-out pitcher (closer). He could (and maybe now is in the process of changing) to try to operate with 4 or 5 strikeout guys in the rotation--but that must have less than 5 years of MLB service because salaries rise sharply after three years and explode after 6 years. Good Teammates and Nice Guys is actually a subset of Making Them Fit the Mold. This is similar to many other organizations which see very different from a baseball team except that they too are made up of people and a selection rubric is used for them as well. Consider other "Minnesota" stuff. Examples: University's hockey team (for many decades) is nearly 100% made up of Minnesota residents. Minnesota Nice--it is repeated endlessly. I consider such practices "Marketing"--give the customer what he wants. If the public wants to see choir boys--well the Twins will see to it that the team is full of them. If a lesser-skilled guy but with a dirty uniform is preferred to a better-skilled guy the "steps-out-of-bounds"--you get my drift. It also helps that those guys cost less (supply and demand) than the more skilled player. That concept also fits the business plan. The teams are not biased, the community is. There was a comment earlier that was to refute any claim of racial bias--but sadly the comment showed he author's "Whiteness". Black ballplayers are African-American, they were born here like (I presume) we posters. Dominicans, the rest of the Caribbean islands, and South Americans are Latin players--even if their skin is as darkly complected as an African-American. These are two separate demographics and it is a mistake for the White American to lump-them-together.
I really like this article because it makes one think. Not such a bad thing. Got to believe they would have liked power arms, but they went off on their own tangent. Remember that they were high on drafting tall pitchers. Who came up with that one? Sure didn't arrive at that conclusion by looking at Johan. And sometimes it would be nice to see someone shoot their mouth off occasionally, Dan Gladden-like.
I just don't like the race card thing. The Twins have always had a philosophy of signing the best "signable player". (ex: Ben Revere) They were a little slow getting established in Venezuela but have been catching up. Years ago the Senators-Twins had a great pipeline in Cuba until Castro shut that off. And some guys just won't play in Minnesota. In 1987 they traded for Don Baylor down the stretch. In 1991 they signed Chili Davis. Santana wanted to go to a bigger market. Plain and simple. But it was the Twins who gave him the shot to do the great things he did. And last but not least, sometimes a white guy is just the better player.
Originally Posted by Seth Stohs If he was saying he wasn't going to sign for less than $120 million and saying hat he didn't intend to stay... yup. The Twins offered Santana $100 million. They also gave Torii Hunter $42 million at the same time in his career that they gave Joe Mauer his $42 million deal. (which was pretty much the same deal they gave to Santana at the same time in his career). they failed to give johan a 6 year 20 million dollar deal but went 7 years at 23 per for joe? im not saying they goose step to the mound or any thing , but i think you see some slights. Santana should have won 3 cy youngs , and was young and the best pitcher at the time. just like joe was young and the best catcher at the time. As all twins fans i hope we get another ring in the near future , and yes i have been a negitive nell, but when we do do things that are positive i am right there cheering ...but i do not know how you can look at this off season and think that the only thing acomlished was cutting payroll, we started off building for the future , then went into the smoke and mirrors mold, a conflicting off season , then to have the front office claim we will contend this year, they lost all credibility
Originally Posted by JB_Iowa I'm am absolutely convinced that Gardenhire's long-term approach ("Keep playing hard boys, we'll get 'em tomorrow), is a significant part of the success that the Twins enjoyed during the 2000's. He generally did not allow them to get too high or too low -- keeping them on an "even keel" with an appreciation for the length of the season. I do believe that it helped them down the stretch. But I also believe that it puts them in middle gear and that they were unable to shift out of it when it came to the playoffs -- when time is NOT on your side and there isn't always a game tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, the lack of power pitching and the gaps in the line-up were also a big part of those losses. But sometimes "little engines" do win, even in the playoffs, but they have to have the right mindset. And I just don't think that Gardenhire and the other leaders on this team (whoever they may be cuz I'm not sure I've ever been able to identify them well) were able to shift from a long-season view to the urgency of the playoffs. And in a sense, I wonder if the organization's current stance isn't somewhat like that. They were used to sustained long-term success in the 2000's (albeit no playoff wins) and now that they have had a disastrous two seasons, I think they are still stuck in 2nd gear. I hope that they can shift to 1st as some of the prospects develop so that the Twins may eventually be competitive in the post-season but I'm not sure that it'll happen especially if 2nd gear (no substantial changes in the organization) eventually produces regular season competitiveness. Thanks, JB. I've read your posts, and have always appreciated your insights. This was no exception. You added something really important that I passed over, and a good reminder that the Twins Way was also responsible for some regular season successes.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments, gang. I'd just reiterate that in no way am I accusing the team of racism. I have not heard any members of the organization abuse anyone on the team or any potential prospects on the basis of cultural identity -- ethnic or otherwise. I am, however, leveling the charges or groupthink and organizational stagnation, which may have the effect of limiting contributions and participation from perceived "outsiders." That the Twins signed Sano was clearly a smart business and baseball decision, and by all accounts the result of a well-constructed relationship between Radcliffe (is that right?) and Sano's contacts and family. I appluded that signing then, and continue to hope for more solid acquisitions. But this reminds me of what we see at some of our state's colleges. Some have been great at getting international students to come here for an education. But many of the students don't stay very long, and those that go sometimes refer to being treated like a constant outsider, like a curiosity, like they are supposed to fit in quickly or risk sticking out. I'm just hoping that this is not what some of our prospects have experienced, or will experience. It takes skilled management to do two things at once: help outsiders acclimate to the group and let them feel like can still be who they are. I worry when I read about how Ortiz, Bartlett and Hardy have talked about how the Twins have tried to change them, and not to the benefit of their play. This kind of behavior is a hallmark of organizations that see no need and have no desire to change. And, if the last two seasons have made even one thing clear, it's that the Twins MUST change. And quickly. As always, I'll be rooting for them, even when I'm frustrated by what I see.
Originally Posted by johnnydakota So your telling me if Kevin Slowey put up Santana like numbers , the twins would have traded him for a handful of magic beans like they recieved for Johan? If he was saying he wasn't going to sign for less than $120 million and saying hat he didn't intend to stay... yup. The Twins offered Santana $100 million. They also gave Torii Hunter $42 million at the same time in his career that they gave Joe Mauer his $42 million deal. (which was pretty much the same deal they gave to Santana at the same time in his career).
I'm am absolutely convinced that Gardenhire's long-term approach ("Keep playing hard boys, we'll get 'em tomorrow), is a significant part of the success that the Twins enjoyed during the 2000's. He generally did not allow them to get too high or too low -- keeping them on an "even keel" with an appreciation for the length of the season. I do believe that it helped them down the stretch. But I also believe that it puts them in middle gear and that they were unable to shift out of it when it came to the playoffs -- when time is NOT on your side and there isn't always a game tomorrow. You realize that this is the exact same approach used by Tom Kelly, right? All it is saying is that you play the game that day, then you play the game the next day then. Any other thinking is what should be considered wrong.
Excellent post. I don't entirely agree with you, but consider this paraphrased quote from Einstein: "Prohibition is bad for democracy. Public meeting houses are integral to democracy--where else can you agree to disagree over a few tasty brews." The inter web is opposite. Especially when your team sucks. But as a near forty-year old, I choose to wear the rose tinted glases, drink the Kool-Aid, etc. I don't have time in my life with kids and mortgage and whatnot to dissect saber metrically every move the Twins make. I guess I'm just a glassy eyed homer who doesn't happen to pay taxes in Hennepin County. One of my best days in the last couple of years was watching Jimmer hit 600 on MLB TV along with my 2 year old. Honestly, I callled it. My boy had no idea what he was cheering for, but boy did he cheer.
Thanks for posting. But I have to tell you, I disagree with so many of your conclusions, and can very very easily give examples that completely contradict them. First of all Gardy and Andy don't have a thing to do with the draft, so the notion of them having a massive influence on "types" of players, from a talent, skill, personality, cultural, or racial perspective is preposterous. And please look in the mirror. Your generalization thet midwesterners are reticent to talk about race or culture is a bit insulting. And the notion that there is this overt attempt to jettison non-conforming players for reasons other than how they affect team performance (usually by failing to perform as individuals) and to pin it on racial and cultural dynamics fails all tests. you know, most of the most popular players among fans in the Twin's long history refute your argument. And frankly, when we talk about Carew, Oliva, Versalles, Killebrew, Tovar, Puckett, Pascual, Mauer, Tiant, Chance, Santana, Viola---we don't talk about culture, and race, and religion. We don't even talk about whether they were good or bad actors. It's about how much we loved their ability to play the game of baseball.
Originally Posted by gunnarthor This is a pretty bad post. The racism charge, even if you aren't brave enough to claim it, is insulting. On the plus side, that means we can ignore the rest of your ranting. So your telling me if Kevin Slowey put up Santana like numbers , the twins would have traded him for a handful of magic beans like they recieved for Johan?
2013 is just another game of 3 card monty, Terry keeps shuffling the players , but we never come up a winner
Great blog post! "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein. Observation of behavior is never racism, and what you have said here is well delivered. You bring out great points. You have hit the nail on the head several times, from several angles. Many will "argue" with you, because that is what they are want to do. But what you said needs no defense. Things won't change until Gardenhire and Ryan are gone, I suspect, and the spirited players, regardless of their talent, will be shipped out for the very reasons that will make them valuable to less mediocre minds.
Just a few questions in my mind as I read... By performance, weren't many of the teams of the last decade better than the 1987 team? The 1987 team had the great fortune of home field advantage though they didn't earn it. It rotated in that era. Once in the playoffs, the small sample of games makes it very difficult to assess the quality of the team. An extra home game was huge for the Twins. That assessment is best done by the in season performance. Why trade Garza and Bartlett for a known troubled player in Delmon Young? How does that fit with concerns about Twins way or ethnicity? More questions come to mind... The frequent appearances of Carew and Oliva, choosing Buxton over Appel, winning the monetary battle to sign Sano... Are they consistent with the thoughts in the article?
This is a pretty bad post. The racism charge, even if you aren't brave enough to claim it, is insulting. On the plus side, that means we can ignore the rest of your ranting.
First, I want to thank you for a well-written first blog post. And, I agree with much of what you've written. I want to point out what has been another "conundrum" for me that ties into your 2nd to the last paragraph. I'm am absolutely convinced that Gardenhire's long-term approach ("Keep playing hard boys, we'll get 'em tomorrow), is a significant part of the success that the Twins enjoyed during the 2000's. He generally did not allow them to get too high or too low -- keeping them on an "even keel" with an appreciation for the length of the season. I do believe that it helped them down the stretch. But I also believe that it puts them in middle gear and that they were unable to shift out of it when it came to the playoffs -- when time is NOT on your side and there isn't always a game tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, the lack of power pitching and the gaps in the line-up were also a big part of those losses. But sometimes "little engines" do win, even in the playoffs, but they have to have the right mindset. And I just don't think that Gardenhire and the other leaders on this team (whoever they may be cuz I'm not sure I've ever been able to identify them well) were able to shift from a long-season view to the urgency of the playoffs. And in a sense, I wonder if the organization's current stance isn't somewhat like that. They were used to sustained long-term success in the 2000's (albeit no playoff wins) and now that they have had a disastrous two seasons, I think they are still stuck in 2nd gear. I hope that they can shift to 1st as some of the prospects develop so that the Twins may eventually be competitive in the post-season but I'm not sure that it'll happen especially if 2nd gear (no substantial changes in the organization) eventually produces regular season competitiveness.
I can't recall anyone pitching with earrings on. I doubt any team, or umpire, allows it. What was the other rule Hernandez broke?
Seth, first of all, it's an honor to have you comment. I not only respect your work, I appreciate your upbeat attitude towards all things Twins. And good points. I'd just say: 1) Gardy probably does enjoy homeruns from the hitters and strikeouts from the pitchers. For some reason, we haven't had many of these over his tenure. 2) Maybe Gardy was right, but sometimes there's a difference between being right and how/what you say to the press about your guys. I think my larger point on the team's overall agressiveness stands. 3) When the Yankees experience the same run of futility, I will write an article about their team's culture. But you're off base on your final comment, I think. Raising questions about the ethnic composition of the team in comparison with other teams isn't "playing the race card." In fact, I have no idea what the "race card" is, except perhaps a way for Midwesterners to express their discomfort about having to talk about ethnicity and culture -- and perhaps even history. Yes, the Twins "have a history" with black players, but it isn't always a happy history, and it isn't perhaps as full as other team's histories. Again, no value judgements or accusatuions towards the team. It just makes me wonder. Perhaps the future will be different.
Originally Posted by Seth Stohs Thanks for blogging. Hopefully you will continue to do so... but, got to add to the discussion: 1.) Gardy/Andy - you don't think that Gardy enjoys having hitters like Morneau, Mauer, Willingham, Doumit, and Plouffe arround? You don't think they appreciated having a healthy, pre-TJ Liriano or Johan Santana or Joe Nathan or healthy Juan Rincon? 2.) Mijares was making a statement of some sort for himself, not for the team. Gardy/Delmon were right. He also didn't exactly pitch well before the Twins decided to let him go, so I can't quite get on board with that one. Orlando Cabrera did a nice job for 2 months with the Twins. He was OK at best the following year (2010) and the Twins brought in JJ Hardy to play SS, and Cabrera was horrible in 2011. It's hard to be upset about not bringing him back. 3.) The Yankees have a no-facial hair policy. How has that been negative for them? Also, I'll let others jump on you for the playing the old "race" card. The Twins have a history with black players and have definitely improved their presence in Latin America in recent years as well. Well i do disagree with you on the race card Seth , me thinks if johan was white he never would have been allowed to leave.
Thanks for blogging. Hopefully you will continue to do so... but, got to add to the discussion: 1.) Gardy/Andy - you don't think that Gardy enjoys having hitters like Morneau, Mauer, Willingham, Doumit, and Plouffe arround? You don't think they appreciated having a healthy, pre-TJ Liriano or Johan Santana or Joe Nathan or healthy Juan Rincon? 2.) Mijares was making a statement of some sort for himself, not for the team. Gardy/Delmon were right. He also didn't exactly pitch well before the Twins decided to let him go, so I can't quite get on board with that one. Orlando Cabrera did a nice job for 2 months with the Twins. He was OK at best the following year (2010) and the Twins brought in JJ Hardy to play SS, and Cabrera was horrible in 2011. It's hard to be upset about not bringing him back. 3.) The Yankees have a no-facial hair policy. How has that been negative for them? Also, I'll let others jump on you for the playing the old "race" card. The Twins have a history with black players and have definitely improved their presence in Latin America in recent years as well.
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