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  • Twins vs White Sox, 07-25-2012, 1:10pm

    The Twins bullpen was shelled for nine runs last night as the White Sox drubbed Minnesota 11-4. Wasting a quality start from Cole De Vries (6 IP, 2 runs, 1 earned), the Twins pen disintegrated, allowing nine runs in three innings pitched with five walks. Not the type of performance you want to make against a division rival.

    In the getaway game, we'll see a rejuvenated Nick Blackburn take on a rejuvenated Jake Peavy. Pitching well in his last start, Blackburn looks to cement his spot in the rotation for the rest of the summer. We'll see how well that works, given US Cellular's bandbox nature and Nick's proclivity to give up the long ball when his sinker isn't working.

    What do you expect from Blackburn today? What member of the Twins lineup will step up and drive in some runs after Willingham's one-man show last night? Join the Twins Daily discussion below!

    Nick Blackburn

    W L ERA G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR HB BB IBB SO AVG WHIP GO/AO
    SEASON 4 5 7.46 14 14 0 0 70.0 97 58 58 15 0 22 0 32 .327 1.70 1.22
    MLB Totals 43 51 4.76 140 132 5 0 790.0 957 467 418 109 18 198 11 378 .300 1.46 1.33

    Jake Peavy

    W L ERA G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR HB BB IBB SO AVG WHIP GO/AO
    SEASON 7 7 3.22 19 19 4 1 134.0 113 50 48 14 6 27 0 120 .228 1.04 0.65
    MLB Totals 116 88 3.45 270 269 13 6 1715.1 1497 691 658 173 59 526 37 1674 .234 1.18 0.95

    Twins Offense
    RK Player Team Pos G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    1 Mauer, J MIN C 89 329 52 109 21 1 6 45 52 50 4 1 .331 .422 .456 .878
    2 Revere, B MIN RF 62 257 31 80 8 3 0 15 14 21 21 5 .311 .349 .366 .715
    3 Doumit, R MIN C 79 275 32 79 19 1 10 46 21 58 0 0 .287 .340 .473 .813
    4 Span, D MIN CF 89 358 44 101 24 2 3 30 35 47 9 6 .282 .345 .385 .731
    5 Willingham, J MIN LF 93 336 57 92 22 1 25 72 51 87 2 1 .274 .385 .568 .953
    6 Mastroianni, D MIN LF 38 80 11 21 1 2 2 9 9 16 9 2 .263 .337 .400 .737
    7 Plouffe, T MIN RF 74 259 44 67 12 0 19 38 26 57 0 3 .259 .330 .525 .855
    8 Morneau, J MIN 1B 74 289 34 73 18 1 11 40 25 59 1 0 .253 .314 .436 .750
    9 Carroll, J MIN SS 90 309 38 74 12 1 0 29 37 47 6 3 .239 .324 .285 .609
    10 Dozier, B MIN SS 67 255 25 60 9 1 4 28 10 46 6 2 .235 .265 .325 .590
    11 Butera, D MIN C 28 74 5 17 5 0 1 4 5 18 0 0 .230 .288 .338 .625
    12 Casilla, A MIN 2B 67 200 16 45 10 1 0 16 9 37 11 1 .225 .259 .285 .544
    13 Komatsu, E MIN RF 15 32 2 7 0 0 0 1 4 3 0 0 .219 .297 .219 .516
    14 Parmelee, C MIN 1B 40 108 10 22 5 1 2 6 9 28 0 0 .204 .283 .324 .607
    15 Hughes, L MIN 2B 4 10 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 4 1 0 .200 .182 .200 .382
    16 Valencia, D MIN 3B 27 100 9 19 5 1 1 11 2 23 0 1 .190 .204 .290 .494

    White Sox Offense
    RK Player Team Pos G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    1 Konerko, P CWS 1B 89 330 45 111 17 0 16 48 37 50 0 0 .336 .410 .533 .943
    2 Rios, A CWS CF 95 363 57 114 23 5 15 58 17 49 14 5 .314 .349 .529 .878
    3 Danks, J CWS CF 18 27 3 8 1 0 0 2 0 8 1 1 .296 .286 .333 .619
    4 Pierzynski, A CWS C 83 293 40 84 11 3 16 50 19 44 0 0 .287 .339 .509 .847
    5 De Aza, A CWS CF 95 380 64 106 20 5 6 37 34 78 17 8 .279 .347 .405 .752
    6 Youkilis, K CWS 3B 24 92 18 25 4 0 5 19 14 21 0 0 .272 .370 .478 .849
    7 Ramirez, A CWS SS 95 366 36 97 14 3 3 46 10 52 13 3 .265 .286 .344 .630
    8 Viciedo, D CWS RF 89 309 37 79 9 1 15 46 15 72 0 0 .256 .294 .437 .730
    9 Beckham, G CWS 2B 93 340 42 78 16 0 9 38 23 59 3 2 .229 .285 .356 .640
    10 Dunn, A CWS 1B 96 338 59 71 12 0 30 71 75 146 1 1 .210 .353 .512 .865
    11 Escobar, E CWS SS 34 80 14 16 2 1 0 2 9 22 2 0 .200 .281 .250 .531
    11 Humber, P CWS P 2 5 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 .200 .200 .200 .400
    13 Hudson, O CWS 3B 33 101 7 18 3 2 1 11 9 16 1 1 .178 .245 .277 .523
    14 Flowers, T CWS C 29 73 9 13 3 0 2 2 6 31 2 0 .178 .259 .301 .561
    15 Morel, B CWS 3B 35 113 14 20 2 0 0 5 7 39 4 1 .177 .225 .195 .420
    16 Lillibridge, B CWS RF 49 63 10 11 1 0 0 2 4 26 7 2 .175 .232 .190 .422
    17 Fukudome, K CWS RF 24 41 2 7 1 0 0 4 8 9 0 1 .171 .294 .195 .489
    Comments 164 Comments
    1. Ultima Ratio's Avatar
      Ultima Ratio -
      Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
      The mental approach and understanding of any game is a talent, it's not voodoo.
      To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
    1. jctwins's Avatar
      jctwins -
      Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
      I can't wait until someone chimes in and defends Blackie this time around. Something like.....'when healthy, Blackburn is a solid fourth or fifth starter on a good team. He just needs to settle down and find his groove, and he will be just like he was back in 08 and 09.'
      Be sure to tune in for Gardy's post game interview!
    1. Hijinks's Avatar
      Hijinks -
      One could argue that is why the short series are so much fun, much harder to predict the outcome.
    1. Boom Boom's Avatar
      Boom Boom -
      When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

      We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz.

      They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.
    1. DPJ's Avatar
      DPJ -
      Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
      Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build.
      First off were talking a one game sample size, replay that game 100 times and the Russians win 99 of them.

      Secondly, isn't picking players that fit best in a system still about talent? He picked the players that would succeed in the system he was running or offense or whatever the **** hockey does.
    1. cr9617's Avatar
      cr9617 -
      Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
      I don't have gamecenter or anything on so I can't see where they tracked; I was just going by what I happened to catch on replays for hits. It looked to me like some of them were kept down in the zone and to the sides of the plate, and yet still got hammered.

      That last homer, however, was a different matter.
      There is no silver lining to be found in this guy. Stop looking...
    1. Hijinks's Avatar
      Hijinks -
      Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
      When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

      We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz. They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.
      Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.
    1. twinsnorth49's Avatar
      twinsnorth49 -
      Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
      Yes, talent is a necessary component of success, but it is not a guarantee of success. That talent also has to be fit into a system that allows it become more than the sum of the individual parts. You need team chemistry and synergy. This debate reminds me of the 1980 winter olympics and the U.S. hockey team. Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build. Did they have individual talent? Absolutely. But purely on an individual basis they were NOT the most talented hockey players at Lake Placid. Put together in the right way, though, they did become the most talented team in those games.
      Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

      Talent first, everything else next.
    1. twinsnorth49's Avatar
      twinsnorth49 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
      To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
      Apparently not or we wouldn't be looking to trade him.
    1. minn55441's Avatar
      minn55441 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Hijinks View Post
      Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.
      the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?
    1. Boom Boom's Avatar
      Boom Boom -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
      To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
      You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

      Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.
    1. twinsnorth49's Avatar
      twinsnorth49 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
      You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

      Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

      Thank you
    1. minn55441's Avatar
      minn55441 -
      Hanley Ramirez was the most talented player traded so far this season. Will the Dodgers win even more games now that they have more talent? Ozzie couldn't make all of that talent work in Miami, so they are now trading away pieces. They aren't trading away the guys "without talent", they are trading away the guys "with talent" that didn't fit.

      Managers play a huge role in baseball, because the teams with the most talent don't always win. The managers that get the most out of their players win games.
    1. IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
      IdahoPilgrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
      Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

      Talent first, everything else next.
      Yes, I know that, I watched the games, all of them, and I stand by my assessment that their gold medal was not a fluke due to luck or small sample size - they were the best team at the tournament, and not because they had the best players.
    1. Hijinks's Avatar
      Hijinks -
      Quote Originally Posted by minn55441 View Post
      the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?
      I agree, I just don't see how we would acquire 4 more quality pitchers. Diamond has been great and hopefully will continue to be good next year. The Pohlads would have to spend a significant amount of money to sign free agents and history would indicate the are not likely to do that. Unless I am missing a number of significant prospects being ready next year, it doesn't seem like a fix that will occur during the offseason but more likely over the next few years.
    1. Ultima Ratio's Avatar
      Ultima Ratio -
      Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

      What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

      Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.
    1. Hijinks's Avatar
      Hijinks -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
      Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

      What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

      Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.
      No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.
    1. Ultima Ratio's Avatar
      Ultima Ratio -
      Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
      You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

      Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.
      If you look back through the thread, you'll see that you are agreeing with me on this point but not trying to confuse by calling both measurable stats = talent as well as the immeasurable though equally real causes of success.
    1. Ultima Ratio's Avatar
      Ultima Ratio -
      Quote Originally Posted by Hijinks View Post
      No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.
      Yep
    1. twinsnorth49's Avatar
      twinsnorth49 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
      Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

      What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

      Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.
      Ok, maybe a bit sidetracked, I don't believe you can bottom this team out for 4+ years, the cost is too high. The team needs to give hope to the buying public that they can be remotely competitive in order to afford the kind of team and players everybody wants. That being said, the stable on the farm needs refilling and obtaining prospects who can move through the system faster is the only way we're going to contend again.
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