Thread: Where is Revere Most Valuable?

Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line.

But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.

Right now, Revere is most valuable standing on 2nd base. :-) Since we signed Willingham, I've thought it would be best to keep him in LF and put Span in RF. With Revere's range, he could cover a fair amount of LF to help out Willingham, and you wouldn't be forcing a guy to not just adjust to the other side of the OF, but also deal with the goofy-ass overhang. Span has the most experience at Target Field, let's put him in the trickiest spot.

As far as the plate goes, that's where we gotta remember that Revere is only 23. He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power and an excellent eye at the plate. Give him a little time in a low pressure slot at the bottom of the order, and I think we'll see some great things from this young man.

Can someone tell Mr Carew to teach Revere how to steal home too? That'd be fun to watch.

Originally Posted by spideyo

He's young enough that he still could develop a decent amount of power

Well, that seems like a bit of a questionable assertion.

Jack I just want to tell you what a great job you are doing! I think your opinion on the Twins are right on the mark. You are the only blogger who has the guts to say what is lacking with this organization. Thanks for your voice and keep it coming! I will always be listening.......

On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.

Originally Posted by woolhouse

Revere played in LF in Target Field towards the end of last season, too. And he made some great catches in the gap and running towards the line.

But if his bat isn't there, I think his most valuable place is on the bench as a late-inning defensive replacement for Plouffe or Willingham (with Span or Plouffe switching to right) or pinch runner.

Exactly. Until he learns to get on base he's a 4th outfielder. Unfortunately carrying Revere, Butera and Nishioka all on the same bench would be an absolute pinch hitting nightmare.

Originally Posted by Fanatic Jack

Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success. The reason why is because Gardenhire could screw up a wet dream. As a manager you make decisions based on what is best for your 25-man roster. You don't make decisions based on how one player is going to react to it. Gardenhire is scared to death of his players. He is the only manager in the history of the game to walk into a clubhouse and talk to each player before he makes a lineup card. He basically gives each player an opportunity to talk himself out of being in the lineup. The bottom line Gardenhire is afraid of hurting Span's feelings.

Hey Gardenhire go work at the YMCA if your worried about hurting your players feelings. I'm quite certain you can coach a kid's basketball team and make sure everyone plays equally. However, your attitude here is all wrong. Gardenhire has had the most talented players in Twins history and he has lost 12 straight playoff games. You think he would have learned something from moving Delmon Young to left field but apparently not. He is smarter than everyone else!!

You seem to be under the misassumption that feelings don't matter, so let me pose a hypothetical to you. At your place of employment you have two bosses who alternate days. One is friendly, genuinely cares about you, and manages you as a person, and not just an employee. The other is bossy, doesn't seek your input, and is only interested in doign things his way, not matter what anyone else thinks. Which one of these bosses would you rather work for, and which one would get the best effort from you?

Also, from a statistical standpoint, last year Span's UZR/150 in CF was 17.6. In the last 4 years, he's gone from -32.7 to -11.5 to 4.5 to that 17.6--in other words, he has vastly improved his defense over the past 4 years. Revere, meanwhile, was at 15.1 in CF for UZR/150 last year. Denard therefore, based on the extremely small sample size, is more valuable in center than Revere.

Steve,

This whole idea of a veteran deserving a spot just because he has been there before is crazy. Span is a decent center fielder defensively and Revere is an outstanding center fielder. Span can play right field and Willingham only knows left. Why would you mess with past success.

This is where I disagree, and disagree strongly. Yes, the managers job should be to put the best players in the best position for his team to succeed, BUT, putting a "player in the best position" is NOT limited to solely their physical spot on the field. Like it or not, players have emotions and an ego, ask any coach who's ever taught a game and these are things they weigh. Span has earned that position, and he'll tell you that's where he wants to play. Would he move to a corner spot if asked? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean for a second it's what is best for him or the team. Remember when Cuddyer couldn't hit because he was worrying so much about where he'd play and having to pick a ground ball? Then Gardy moved him to the OF and he turned it around. Like it or not, in essence, this is the same exact thing that I'm talking about. You said it best yourself:

Why would you mess with past success.

[?] I do NOT believe Ben Revere is a better CF than Span. As someone else mentions, Revere doesn't take good routes and has to make up for it with his speed. Span isn't all that slower and doesn't have the same route-taking issues. Span has an almost average arm, while Revere has a well-below average one. And I did not say Span deserves to be the CF just because he's "been there before". I said he deserves to be the CF because he's earned it. These are 2 drastically different things.

Originally Posted by TwinsArmChairGM_Jon

Ideally, at least for now, Revere is most valuable as a fourth outfielder off the bench. He's great as a defensive replacement and his speed plays well as a pinch runner.

Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal team, so Ben is most likely going to be starting. His arm is not great or even average, so I have a hard time starting him anywhere but LF as long as we have Span.

His offensive statistics consist of a small sample size in parts of two seasons, but so far he has shown low OBP's and little power which shouldn't surprise anyone who saw his minor league numbers. He needs to raise his OBP 20 points this year just to get to league average and even there his offensive value is limited because of his lack of power. Is it possible for him to drastically raise his on-base-percentage to something well above average? Sure, but he's going to need to to be a Leadoff/Two hitter. Until then he's going to be a bottom of the order OF with some speed.

I was going to post something, but TwinsArmChairGM nailed it for me. Revere should not be in the starting lineup. He's a late inning pinch runner/defensive player. Those of you arguing that he should be placed at the bottom of the order are apparently forgetting that you then have a sequence of Revere-Span-Carroll, not exactly a run producing trio. Remember 2007: Tyner--Punto--Casilla?

On the bench. Winning organizations don't give an OF spot to. 650-ish OPS outfielder.

I would go as far to say that's the case for any position. However, I am inclined to think that Revere can raise his OBP to the league average and do some damage on the basepaths. To have a guy who steals 30-40 bases a year makes up for lack of power.

Couple things: comparing Delmon's switch from RF to LF and Willingham's switch from LF to RF is not at all the same thing. LF requires more range, which Delmon did not possess, resulting in terrible defense. However, switching from LF to RF requires less range, and even though perhaps more technically difficult (with the overhang), should be an easier role. Also, with all of the Revere discussion, it will be a moot point if Plouffe hits like he is capable of hitting.

I like the idea of having at least two OFs that can cover some ground because it will make your pitchers "better" and save runs. That said, it dumbfounds me that so many people are ready to hand Ben Revere a starting spot... much less the CF starting spot... based on what we saw of him last season. His speed on the basebpaths means nothing if he (a) doesn't get on base, and (b) screws up when he does get on base. He's a nice guy to have for games when you want to give Span a day off and perhaps as a late inning replacement as a PR or for defense. But if Plouffe can cover some ground in the OF and contribute offensively, as well, he's got far more potential to improve the Twins than Revere does.

Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:
Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)
Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)
Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)
Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.

Originally Posted by thrylos98

Revere is 23 years old. He still has some learning to do and complete his game. I really never understood the frustration of some fans with younger players who have yet to reach their peak. Here are some numbers just for fun:
Ben Revere's age 23 season: .267/.310/.309 (.619 OPS)
Carlos Gomez' age 23 season: .229/.287/.337 (.623 OPS)
Delmon Young's age 23 season: .284/.308/.425 (.733 OPS)
Kirby Puckett's age 24 (was in the minors for his age 23 season: ) .296/.320/.336 (.655 OPS)

Gomez with similar numbers and better defence than Revere was rushed out of town. Ditto Delmon Young but his was in an injury-ladden season a season and a half later, following a .298/.333/.493 age 24 season, in which he single handedly pretty much carried the team to the post-season after Morneau's injury. Kirby because the Twins' fans darling, but that was in an era in which people were more patient regarding young hitters.

Good points, thrylos. I think, perhaps because we have been hearing and seeing Revere part of 2010 and most of 2011, people have this perception that "what you see is what you get" with him -- that he's not going to improve or change his game. I'd like to think that, with him turning only 24 this May, there's room for growth. I'd also add that he's only played 130 major league games thus far. So it's understandable that he has some learning to do.

I don't think it's being hyper-critical of Revere to point out that RIGHT NOW he is not deserving of being given a starting OF position. If and when he figures out how to get on base regularly and thus contribute offensively, then by all means, let's talk about whether he's earned a starting spot. Until then, we're just debating a potential he hasn't realized yet. It's just that people are suggesting he should supplant a presumed healthy Span in CF right now that seems premature, at best. And if he isn't going to be the primary CF, then it's fair to consider whether his lack of arm and lack of power at the plate make him the best option at a starting corner OF position to start this season.

Revere will be fine in left it hides his arm and its not going to sap to much range from him because they can just play span in right center to make up for Willinghams slow feet.

I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

Originally Posted by Nick Nelson

I'd add to the list Torii Hunter, who hit .250/.309/.380 (.689 OPS) in his age 23 season and was a Gold Glover receiving MVP votes two years later. The rush to judgment on Revere strikes me as pretty extreme, although it's not hard to see why many folks see his skill set as rather limiting.

Statistics are a wonderful tool to rate talent. So are eyeballs and knowledge. I would suggest that those willing to dismiss Revere are using their eyes and knowledge while those holding out hoping that he will develop are relying on statistics OF OTHER PLAYERS. You may put me in the eyeball camp.

I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.

Originally Posted by powrwrap

I'm afraid the most Twins fans can hope for with Revere is Juan Pierre Lite, meaning he will be like Juan Pierre except he will bat .270 instead of .300 and won't get on base as often.

What reason is there to assume Revere can't hit .300 or above in the majors? He hit .270 last year as a 23-year-old rookie. You see absolutely no upside for him?

Span is indeed a great defensive CF, but Revere has the ability to be Carlos Gomez good if his jumps get better with experience. Let him log the time there to get better when facing a RHP. With a lefty, platoon Plouffe and put Span in CF.