10-19-2012, 11:29 AM #21
10-19-2012, 12:27 PM #22
10-19-2012, 01:00 PM #23
For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well.
As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?
Last edited by ThePuck; 10-19-2012 at 01:03 PM.
10-19-2012, 01:23 PM #24
In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.
As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.
10-19-2012, 01:34 PM #25
"For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year.........." the debate is over the Most Valuable Player award not the best all around player award. You take Cabrera out of the Tigers lineup and they are dead in the water. Take Trout out of the Angels lineup and they are still not in the playoffs.
The fact remains that over the years the winner isn't always the best player or the most valuable because there is no set of criteria for the vote. Some years it's more about which way the wind is blowing the last couple weeks of the season.
Imo, Cabrera is no doubt the most valuable, is he the best all around player probably not."WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'!" Edwin Starr
10-19-2012, 01:34 PM #26
10-19-2012, 01:49 PM #27
10-19-2012, 01:59 PM #28
'#1 - how many teams need three catchers?
#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. '
response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching.
response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher.
In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it.
I enjoyed the debate, thanks
Last edited by ThePuck; 10-19-2012 at 02:01 PM.
10-19-2012, 02:03 PM #29
10-19-2012, 02:06 PM #30
I don't know what Natch means, but thanks. You as well :-)
10-19-2012, 02:34 PM #31
Joe will age gracefully, getting on base with sweet swinging singles until he's 40 years old. Prince will catch gout.
10-19-2012, 09:53 PM #32
"Mauer catches almost as much as anyone...except for the seasons in which he didn't."
"Mauer could catch more...except for Gardy."
"Doctors said Morneau couldn't play offense and defense."
"Mauer could catch more, even this season, except he didn't."
Seriously...anything to back up any of that?
10-19-2012, 10:33 PM #33
what are you talking about?
Answer for Quote 1: I actually didn't say Mauer catches almost as much as anyone. I said when looking at his games played from '05-'12, Mauer's games played is in line with most players whose primary position is catcher. I didn't say he was playing catcher all those games. And that quote had to do with talking about the idea he's so injury plagued.
In any event, look at the amount of games catchers in each season from '05 to '12. Go to ESPN and look at games played for catchers. The most played this year was 135. 131 last year was the most. Do you see a pattern or do you believe all the catchers across baseball are getting hurt for that many games all the time and that's why they aren't in the lineup? They aren't? Hmm, then way aren't they playing 162? Cause catchers get rested by their managers to help protect them from the rigors of the position. Gardy is no different. Doesn't mean they actually need it or are hurt.
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around. Have you not seen that over the last several years?
Answer for Quote 3: The Doctors came out and said that the physical exertion of playing both side could bring back symptoms. It was discussed at length. Did you not read it. Here's a taste for an article entitled, 'Morneau: Being DH is protection from concussion symptoms':
'Twins slugger Justin Morneau said he might be used more at designated hitter and less at first base to decrease the chance of a re-occurrence of the concussion problems that prematurely ended his past two seasons.
"Not to get into the medical stuff too much, but [the doctors] said before that if my body gets worn down too much, I'm more vulnerable to having the symptoms reoccur," Morneau said Monday, after he hit a double off the center field wall in a 10-4 spring training loss to the Tampa Bay Rays.
"The chance of going backwards is when I get worn down. I can have the fogginess and the headaches, and all that stuff can return, if my system gets too worn down. Then I'm in a vulnerable position."
Do you need more?
And answer for quote #4...who filled in for Morneau when the team felt he need it? Mauer quite a bit. Was is because Mauer couldn't play catcher, since he was healthy this year, or because he was the best option to go to 1B based on the roster most of the year? Who plugged Doumit in at catcher instead of Mauer while Mauer was healthy and playing 1B? Gardy.
I suppose I could have given the short answer...which is I pay attention...these things are obvious if one pays attention.
Last edited by ThePuck; 10-19-2012 at 11:04 PM.
10-19-2012, 11:06 PM #34
the reply botton is back
10-19-2012, 11:11 PM #35
10-19-2012, 11:17 PM #36
10-20-2012, 01:11 AM #37
10-20-2012, 08:47 AM #38
I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.
I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.
Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.
if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.
Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 10-20-2012 at 08:50 AM.
10-20-2012, 09:08 AM #39
On the topic of the Tigers as a blueprint.
If you mean aggressively go for it. Yeah... Good blueprint.
If you mean... Overload on Power and don't worry about defense. Bad blueprint.
This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.
The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.
Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.
Last edited by Riverbrian; 10-20-2012 at 11:12 AM.
10-20-2012, 11:18 AM #40