Thread: Cafardo: Twins have inquired about Shields

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Do you ever get tired by playing your heel role when it comes to anything Minnesota Sports?

Where do I get the koolaid that makes almost laughably, childishly naive? But if you want to start a T-Wolves thread I'd be really optimistic! (Hint: They don't suck)

You probably pissed and moaned over every move they made when the Timberwolves did suck. Also 26-40 is a great record?

They are 2-1 with reasons to be optimistic. Back to back 90+ loss seasons deserve pessimism. You are entitled to be optimistic but ridiculing pessimism because it doesnt make you a real fan is stupid.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

They are 2-1 with reasons to be optimistic. Back to back 90+ loss seasons deserve pessimism. You are entitled to be optimistic but ridiculing pessimism because it doesnt make you a real fan is stupid.

Ridiculing optimism with this statement

"Where do I get the koolaid that makes almost laughably, childishly naive? But if you want to start a T-Wolves thread I'd be really optimistic! (Hint: They don't suck)"

makes you what?

Dave goes beyond optimistic - I was replying to him. He is right now planning the next ten years of World Series parades after Deduno took a minor league deal. He's in his own ballpark.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Dave goes beyond optimistic - I was replying to him. He is right now planning the next ten years of World Series parades after Deduno took a minor league deal. He's in his own ballpark.

Yeah, that simply isn't true. I said the Twins have the chance to compete in 2013 if they fix the rotation, adding Shields, Baker and Gibson IMO gives them enough of a chance to compete in a weak AL Central. Also there is zero reason why with Ryan at the helm they can't compete in 2014.

I admit I was wrong in my prediction for 2012 when I said they would win 78-84 games, but that wasn't exactly me predicting 10 world series. You need to lay off the hyperbole, champ.

Originally Posted by Top Gun

Matt Moore would be a great pitcher to get, he will be a 20 game winner real soon!

Good grief, give the 20 game winner stuff a break.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by jorgenswest

Many teams should be interested in Shields. The Rays will get a good return. The Royals are looking for pitching. If they get involved, they have the talent to offer a bat and a pitching prospect. If the Rays are also looking for a pitching prospect with the major league bat, the Twins may not be a good match for them.

If that's what the Rays are asking, they can keep Shields. He's a good, not great, pitcher who is due to make ~$22m over the next two seasons. It doesn't make sense to pay significant prospects for a guy who isn't priced much below what he'd get on the free agent market.

shields was the 11 best starter in 2012 , and was ranked higher in 2011...and which pitcher of the twins broke the top 50? top 75even?

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Originally Posted by USAFChief

So by planning not to contend in 2013 and 2014--doing nothing at all to better your team--you somehow magically become a contender at some undetermined future point in time?

This is like a middle aged person making $40K per year telling themselves "I don't have to work to pay the rent or eat for the next couple years, because I feel confident by doing nothing to improve myself now, I will hit the lottery before I die."

The analogy doesn't work (not well for Bark either, but to stick with it) because the problem here isn't that you totally punt 2013 and 2014, it's just that you avoid investing money and assets into acquiring someone who won't be here any longer than that. If you want to pour a bunch of money into a guy like Grienke or Marcum or someone likely to be here 2-4 years. Fine. But trading Span and a minor leaguer to get a guy there is virtually no chance you resign in two years? That's bad organizational planning.

so you want to keep 13 pitchers 3 catchers and 6 outfielders?,id love to keep span and trade lil ben , but ...who is worth more

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

I admit I was wrong in my prediction for 2012 when I said they would win 78-84 games, but that wasn't exactly me predicting 10 world series. You need to lay off the hyperbole, champ.

Drudging up the overly optimistic Dave predictions would take centuries - there have been so many comically awful examples that it doesn't pay to just pick one. You're an optimist, great. The rest of us in the real world suffered with awful game experiences, no ability to sell season tickets when we couldn't make a game, inept play, and a product barely worth paying attention to unless you are a diehard. I've earned the right to be a pessimist and so has any other Twins fan.

So no, I don't feel trading Span and a prospect for a two year rental is a sound idea. You want to swap him for Mike Minor, Tommy Hanson, or some other expanded deal with a prospect - fine. At least then you're helping the organization long-term and not trying to chase some naive delusion of contention.

Um, it's not like the Twins couldn't trade Shields if this or next season goes down the drain.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Dave goes beyond optimistic - I was replying to him. He is right now planning the next ten years of World Series parades after Deduno took a minor league deal. He's in his own ballpark.

Yeah, that simply isn't true. I said the Twins have the chance to compete in 2013 if they fix the rotation, adding Shields, Baker and Gibson IMO gives them enough of a chance to compete in a weak AL Central. Also there is zero reason why with Ryan at the helm they can't compete in 2014.

I admit I was wrong in my prediction for 2012 when I said they would win 78-84 games, but that wasn't exactly me predicting 10 world series. You need to lay off the hyperbole, champ.

Adding one really good pitcher turns a 90+ loss team to a ~75 loss one? Baker is coming off Tommy John and Kyle Gibson will be a rookie. There is not enough depth behind them in the case something goes wrong either. You can't expect a rotation with that many question marks to put the Twins into contention, especially with a below average offense (without Span). The chances would be slightly less slim than last year's, but are still not significant.

The Twins need to do much more to compete in 2013. Say we trade Span for Shields, as the majority of people here including yourself seem intent on for some reason, the Twins need at least 2 more quality pitchers and a power bat to even think about contending with the Tigers. Can you really see them winning 88 again next year? God knows that team underachieved until the post-season.

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

Um, it's not like the Twins couldn't trade Shields if this or next season goes down the drain.

Or have 2 years and 440 innings of very good pitching, then throw him a qualifying offer at the end...

Originally Posted by Steve J

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

Um, it's not like the Twins couldn't trade Shields if this or next season goes down the drain.

Or have 2 years and 440 innings of very good pitching, then throw him a qualifying offer at the end...

Or just resign him...like right away...

Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls

Originally Posted by Top Gun

Matt Moore would be a great pitcher to get, he will be a 20 game winner real soon!

Good grief, give the 20 game winner stuff a break.

Exactly, It's not like you have to be a great pitcher to win 20 games. You can just be very lucky and get a ton of run support and not have the bullpen screw you over too much. You could easily have a pitcher win 20 and have an ERA close to 5 and does that make him a good pitcher? No.

Originally Posted by darin617

You could easily have a pitcher win 20 and have an ERA close to 5 and does that make him a good pitcher?

I wonder how many times that's happened...since teams went to five man rotations...where a guy won 20 or more games and had an ERA close to 5 (I'd say close would be 4.76 or higher (close to 5 than 4.5)

Originally Posted by darin617

Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls

Originally Posted by Top Gun

Matt Moore would be a great pitcher to get, he will be a 20 game winner real soon!

Good grief, give the 20 game winner stuff a break.

You could easily have a pitcher win 20 and have an ERA close to 5 and does that make him a good pitcher?.

I think that would be pretty difficult to do.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

I admit I was wrong in my prediction for 2012 when I said they would win 78-84 games, but that wasn't exactly me predicting 10 world series. You need to lay off the hyperbole, champ.

Drudging up the overly optimistic Dave predictions would take centuries - there have been so many comically awful examples that it doesn't pay to just pick one. You're an optimist, great. The rest of us in the real world suffered with awful game experiences, no ability to sell season tickets when we couldn't make a game, inept play, and a product barely worth paying attention to unless you are a diehard. I've earned the right to be a pessimist and so has any other Twins fan.

So no, I don't feel trading Span and a prospect for a two year rental is a sound idea. You want to swap him for Mike Minor, Tommy Hanson, or some other expanded deal with a prospect - fine. At least then you're helping the organization long-term and not trying to chase some naive delusion of contention.

Well yeah I'd obviously prefer Tommy Hanson as well, but I live in the real world where opposing GMS aren't lining up to get destroyed in trades. On that note, maybe we should try to get Strausburg or Matt Moore as well in a Span centered deal!

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Well yeah I'd obviously prefer Tommy Hanson as well, but I live in the real world where opposing GMS aren't lining up to get destroyed in trades. On that note, maybe we should try to get Strausburg or Matt Moore as well in a Span centered deal!

Cute to hear you lecture on realism! Jeez Dave - what's with your heel schtick on JR's ability to fleece people? (Look, it sounds just as obnoxious and stupid when I do it!)

I don't care who the name is, in my opinion we maximize Span by dealing him for something akin to what KC did for Broxton. Or we trade him for someone with team control. Shields is a good pitcher but he's unlikely to stay here long-term when he has a chance to cash-in and you won't get as much for a pitcher in the final year of his deal. (See: Grienke) And all of this is assuming the price with Span isn't high. (It likely is) So, for many reasons, Shields doesn't make sense. Dangle Span for someone with 3-4 years on this team or start dangling Willingham for the Sheilds-types.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Steve J

Originally Posted by John Bonnes

Um, it's not like the Twins couldn't trade Shields if this or next season goes down the drain.

Or have 2 years and 440 innings of very good pitching, then throw him a qualifying offer at the end...

Or just resign him...like right away...

Ding ding ding!

Shields' velocity gain suggests his arm is well and he and can be counted on to be pitching at the trade deadline, and probably pitching well. Span's concussion history on the other hand, suggests he may be the bigger injury risk.

Every year there are are pitchers on all-in clubs that go down with TJ's or torn labrums. So there would be nothing to stop the Twins trading Shields at the deadline for prospects or whatever if the season goes south early and there is a buyer out there desperate for pitching. Heck, they could flip him yet this winter.