11-15-2012, 01:25 PM #21
If you have a payroll of around 100 million dollars then you don't need to plan on contedning in 2015 you can contend now. Le Tigres who won only what 88 games this season signed Tori Hunter? Big wow. Tori Hunter got lucky on balls in play last year. His power is dimished and his Defense in RF isn't even average anymore. Maybe plus two wins for Le Tigres. The Twins could contend now with smart trades and a couple of free agent SP signings. You obviously want to be flexible for future years because what you have isn't a sure thing or even close to it. The Blue Jays went all in for this upcoming year. With the package they got which is close to 10 plus wins a year if healthy they went all in. The Twins don't need to do that but can contend in the AL Central with smart moves. Look at the Orioles, I'd argue the Twins are a better team with a couple of above average starters and luck thrown in.
11-15-2012, 01:45 PM #22
If the Twins plan on rebuilding through trades--start now! IMO there is no realistic scenario where the Twins are a playoff team in 2013. It would be far better to trade nearly all of the ML talent now, lose 120, and get serious about rebuilding. Consider how wretched DET was in 2003--and now they rule the division and likely are the favorite for the AL pennant in 2013. Their owner spent money--but they also drafted well, and they made shrewd trades. The Twins need not repeat the long drought of the '90s in order to rebuild for the next decade.
11-15-2012, 01:56 PM #23
Succumbing to a 2 year rebuilding plan means wasting the last few years of Mauer's prime.
Mauer is supposed to be a player to build around. Don't waste what's left of his prime rebuilding.
11-15-2012, 09:30 PM #24
Seth, you are a great blogger but the idea that signing torii should make the Twins fold up their tent and go home is just dumb. The truth is the Twins should have a similar goal whether they are building for next year or 2014 or 15 - add quality, longer term pitching. To think they are going to trade off all their assets for prospects and they will be all better in 2014 is tenuous at best since they have exactly one in house pitching prospect (Hermsonn) at AA or above.
They could trade away all available assets, miss on their assessment and end up with nothing. Anybody remember the Stahoviak / Becker years? They need quality, young(er) pitching: this year, next year 2015 and beyond. If they don't solve that, Hicks, Arcia et al will not make a difference.
11-15-2012, 09:59 PM #25
11-15-2012, 10:22 PM #26
Great post, great comments. My 2-cents...I think trading Willingham to the Braves for young starting pitching (Hanson, Minor, Teheran, Delgado) and Span and a prospect to Tampa for Shields or Hellickson is a start. A big question to answer is what prospect in the package for Shields/Hellickson and what prospect with Willingham if we asked for 2 Braves pitchers instead of one. Still, you could conceivably have Sheilds/Hellickson at the top of your rotation with 1 or 2 of the Braves young starters and Scott Diamond in your rotation and you haven't spent a dime in free agency. Maybe you add an Edwin Jackson or Brandon McCarthy as a FA. Your starting pitching is MUCH better. Gibson is a possibility in June. If you kept Morneau that would put Parmalee in RF. You need a LF'er. Hicks is not even a consideration until at least July. But a team that could pitch like that could compete with a little luck in 2013 (and face it, most every team needs a little luck). It would certainly be set up to compete in 2014 with prospects like Arcia, Hicks, Gibson, Hendricks etc...a year older.
SP Shields, Minor, E. Jackson, Diamond (Delgado/Gibson)
LF ??? (Arcia?)
The lineup isn't as strong but the pitching staff is built to keep you in games.
11-15-2012, 10:36 PM #27
At 1:23 Rosterman posted some information the leads me to the single most important reason why we are in the mess we're in. Look at the 2008-2010 drafts and you will see 10 pitchers drafted with in the first 100 or so picks. Of these 7 have washed out and two others have had arm surgery. Only Gibson seems a lock to be a solid or better major leaguer. Horrible drafting and training or extremely bad luck? I lean toward the former.
11-15-2012, 11:23 PM #28
This is a fine line. We need pitching, pitching and more pitching. Model has changed in the past 3 - 4 years as most clubs now are very reluctant to give up pitching prospects without being overpaid for them. None of the twins players available will bring more than a B prospect. Rays, Atlanta and Seattle along with Oakland have the excess pitching. I would prefer to deal with the Rays as we have 2 players they should be interested in (Span and Parmalee) and 8 possible starters to trade. Brave and Seattle pitchers are more risky unless Seattle will give up one of their top prospects (would probably require Willingham +) mlbtraderumors commented today that Seattle could be in on Hamilton(that would cost only money, but is an unlikely destination). Twins need to more at a faster pace or this market could pass them by. If TR decides to wait, I only hope it is the correct move and we are not looking at the dregs of the barrel.
11-16-2012, 06:56 AM #29
Players left by free agency. Jesse Crain had a career year in his last year. Signed elsewhere because he wanted to be a closer. The Twins got a draft pick.
Baker left and the Twins got nothing. What possible scenario could have the Twins ever received compensation for Baker ?
Yes Ryan did not always produce the most talent from the drafts yet he found talent off the other rosters. Examples in Ryan's late tenure before vacation moves were 2 minor league players became Luis Castillo and Buck Buchanan became Jason Barlett. Matt Gueirrier was a waiver pickup.The cupboard was not bare in 2007 when Ryan retired
11-16-2012, 07:13 AM #30
The Twins aren't going to be fighting for a playoff spot next season. It makes sense to build for the future.
11-16-2012, 08:31 AM #31
How does signing players this year, to maybe contend stop them from building for the future? And, GMs are not in charge of the draft....they do trades and free agency. It isn't like if they cut payroll this year, they will use those dollars saved in a future year....
11-16-2012, 08:46 AM #32
They are way ahead of us.
11-16-2012, 09:51 AM #33
There's like a million good things to respond to in this thread, so I am not going to try. I believe in going big or . . . going big. The safer go big scenario involves not trading anybody and just adding through free agency (two pitchers and maybe a bat to trade--still think if in 2012 D-Lee or Vlad had been given a chance, they could have traded them for something). The other go big scenario is to trade a BUNCH of guys on the Twins (Span, Morneau, Willingham, Doumit, and either Parmelee or Revere) for 5+ B or better prospects who are ready or close to ready. I think the former situation can get the Twins above .500. The latter situation would likely not produce more than 70 wins, but at least there would be interest in seeing a roster of 22-25-year olds with Mauer and Plouffe and a few other guys for a year.
11-16-2012, 09:56 AM #34
I can assure you that for 2013 Torii Hunter > Chris Parmelee in RF (if that ridiculous scenario plays out), both defensively and offensively. The Tigers are WAY ahead of the Twins, unfortunately.
11-16-2012, 10:27 AM #35
Bleh, that's too far away. Get it together and get winning. Already wasted 2 years of everyone's time messing around.
11-16-2012, 10:59 AM #36
I love it how some can't see any middle ground on this. This isn't a completely blow it up situation nor is it a go for it in 2013 situation. The focus should be on building a team that is peaking in 2015. The rotation is a mess and while it might be possible to completely rebuild it in one offseason through 3+ FA or trades the more realistic path will take a couple of years. They should be able to sign a FA this winter and it's sounds pretty likely that they can match up on a trade with TB/SEA/ATL/CIN/other for a young pitcher/prospect. There's also a chance they pick Appel/Manaea/Stanek/other in the draft in June. I know that a couple of teams have turned it around in one offseason but realistically it's going to take a couple of years (hopefully).
11-16-2012, 11:04 AM #37
And I'm a little hazy on your definition of "solid" players. To me that means guys who are average or a little better. Either the word has a vastly different meaning to you, or you're unaware of the fact that Fielder, Jackson, Avila, Scherzer, and Fister are All-Star caliber players. And Hunter and Martinez may not be All Stars anymore, but they're clearly still well above average. Current Twins staff 'ace' Scott Diamond would have to battle for the 5th spot in a Sanchez-less Tigers rotation, or toss long relief if they bring Anibal back. They left a reliever (Villarreal) off their postseason roster who could probably beat out Burton for the setup role if he were a Twin.
It's likely that the Twins will add a couple of starting pitchers in the offseason, and maybe a warm body in the middle infield or bullpen. They'll probably be better next year than they were this year or last. But if you seriously think that the Twins will contend for the division title by adding Joe Blanton, Jeremy Guthrie, and a big bag of Verlander and Cabrera voodoo dolls...well, good luck with that.
Last edited by LaBombo; 11-16-2012 at 11:28 AM.
11-16-2012, 11:13 AM #38
Twinkies contracted there is no future!!"WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'!" Edwin Starr
11-16-2012, 03:55 PM #39
the Twins are doing what they can to get by until 2015 and 2016.Follow my photography, group page can be found here.
11-16-2012, 06:09 PM #40