Thread: Scott Feldman, the Cubs, and how Theo Epstien is making Terry Ryan's life miserable

Originally Posted by Kwak

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by Top Gun

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

That Baker signed elsewhere implies either of the following to me: a) Ryan has seriously underestimated the price of starting pitching or b) every pitcher that receives "a final offer from the Twins "will immediately shop it" and sign elsewhere for slightly more, thus forcing the Twins to make "a blow-away" offer in order to sign a pitcher.

Or that he didn't want to use part of his money on an injury prone, inconsistent starter coming off Tommy John surgery who likely won't be ready to start the season and whose effectiveness is a complete unknown going forward. Everybody seems to be glossing over that many guys that have TJ never come back even close to what they once were. This might work out for the Cubs but let's get over the idea that this signing is some lead pipe cinch for success.

Originally Posted by Linus

Or that he didn't want to use part of his money on an injury prone, inconsistent starter coming off Tommy John surgery who likely won't be ready to start the season and whose effectiveness is a complete unknown going forward. Everybody seems to be glossing over that many guys that have TJ never come back even close to what they once were. This might work out for the Cubs but let's get over the idea that this signing is some lead pipe cinch for success.

Which FA pitchers don't have blemishes? You seem to imply there are some.

I would consider those major question marks, not blemishes.

Whether you call them "major" "semi-major" "sorta-kinda" or whatever kind of question marks your analysis fails to take into account the fact that Baker got 1 year and 5M. Edwin Jackson - he of serious consistency issues - may cost double that a year and several times that in guaranteed money overall.

If you're waiting for this particular free agent class to yield you a guy without question marks at a reasonable price, I also have heard about an apocalypse coming that you want to stock up for at the low, low markup price of 700%. Instead, it's far more reasonable to look at things through the prism of how much money did they invest for what kind of risk. By the end of this offseason 5M in guaranteed money may look very reasonable for that set of risks. I'd bet it will with the money floating around.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Whether you call them "major" "semi-major" "sorta-kinda" or whatever kind of question marks your analysis fails to take into account the fact that Baker got 1 year and 5M. Edwin Jackson - he of serious consistency issues - may cost double that a year and several times that in guaranteed money overall.

If you're waiting for this particular free agent class to yield you a guy without question marks at a reasonable price, I also have heard about an apocalypse coming that you want to stock up for at the low, low markup price of 700%. Instead, it's far more reasonable to look at things through the prism of how much money did they invest for what kind of risk. By the end of this offseason 5M in guaranteed money may look very reasonable for that set of risks. I'd bet it will with the money floating around.

I totally agree, Ryan wouldn't have offered Baker a contract if he wasn't convinced he was worth the risk. I think the offer got "shopped" and Baker signed with the Cubs. I also don't think that Baker will be held to some predetermined innings limit. IIRC, Liriano pitched nearly 200 innings at all levels of baseball in 2008.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Just because two terrible teams like the Cubs and Royals are overpaying for garbage doesn't mean the rest of the teams are going to follow suit.

Feldman for 6 million is a freaking joke. Anything over 2.5 mil for him is overpaying.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The Cubs aren't doing the Twins any favors, that's for sure.

This is just false. First, the Cubs organization is very, very stupid. And they are my second favorite team, by far. They are just dumb.

Anyway, how short memories are. Remember Mark Buehrle? He got a RIDICULOUS contract.early last offseason and the market subsequently fell for a bunch of pitchers. I am not sure how to respond to such immediate responses like this. Good grief.

Originally Posted by minn55441

TR was on talkin' Twins last night.

After listening the three things I cam away from the discussion. I"m para-phrasing here, so give me a little latitude.

1) Essentially all of the free agent money will be devoted to Pitching.
2) Signing prior to the winter meetings tend to be overpriced.
3) He is expecting to sign enough quality starting pitching so that the team can compete in 2013

The Jury is obviously still out, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until we start to see him actually make some moves.

He either knows what he is doing and will put together a quality pitching staff or the game has passed him by and it is time for a change. Either way we should know on April 1st.

Exactly. The Twins could have signed Edwin Jackson late-ish last season after all. And they should have. Again, the Cubs are stupid.

Originally Posted by Shane Wahl

Anyway, how short memories are. Remember Mark Buehrle? He got a RIDICULOUS contract.early last offseason and the market subsequently fell for a bunch of pitchers. I am not sure how to respond to such immediate responses like this. Good grief.

I think this is a different animal. Basically every signing we've seen thus far has been higher than expected (significantly so in some cases) and the big-market teams have barely dipped their toes in the water.

Cue the Counting Crows...

It'll be "A long December" (if everyone goes nuts and throws tomatoes at Terry Ryan every time a player signs with another team)

"And there's reason to believe... Maybe this year will be better than the last" (it has to get better...TR has said he's focused on pitching)

"I can't remember the last thing that you said" (I can't remember **** these days).

Originally Posted by Shane Wahl

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Just because two terrible teams like the Cubs and Royals are overpaying for garbage doesn't mean the rest of the teams are going to follow suit.

Feldman for 6 million is a freaking joke. Anything over 2.5 mil for him is overpaying.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The Cubs aren't doing the Twins any favors, that's for sure.

This is just false. First, the Cubs organization is very, very stupid. And they are my second favorite team, by far. They are just dumb.

Anyway, how short memories are. Remember Mark Buehrle? He got a RIDICULOUS contract.early last offseason and the market subsequently fell for a bunch of pitchers. I am not sure how to respond to such immediate responses like this. Good grief.

I think what you're saying was once true, but things are quickly changing just below the surface for the Cubs. They were very shrewd signing Maholm last year and flipping him for a top-10 pitching prospect from the Braves (Vizcaino) along with another good looking pitcher ( a scenario I begged the Twins to take by signing Maholm, Bedard and Jackson last spring).

As a Cubs fan, you do realize that between FA, trades and waiver acquisitions (another area where Ryan has been lacking, especially in such an advantageous position), the Cubs have acquired 10 RHP since July 31, right?!? They offloaded some hefty salaries ( and they have 3 more PTBNL picks coming besides) and got another top-10 infielder (Christian Villenueva). They established the future direction of the team when they signed Starlin Castro and Jorge Soler (going to be a monster) to relatively inexpensive long-term deals. And they got Rob Deer in as a hitting coach.

If things don't pan out in the first half of 2013, as is likely, they just flip these one-year contracts and unload more salaries for more prospects. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Watch out come 2014.


If Terry Ryan could only have been just half as "stupid" as the Cubs have been over the last 7 months.

Let's see here. I do not think Feldman was a viable option. Twins are talking to Liarino's agent according to mlbtraderumors. Do Lianino have more stuff than Baker, could Bobby Cuellar fix him, will he be cheap. Probably all three and most of the posters here would not like the risk. Read the mlbtraderumors part on the AL Central. They expect the Twins to make some trades and sign some pitchers, and while not always close to correct have many sources. Expect Span to be in a deal for some pitching along with maybe another player or two Then still hope for 1 major FA signing (Marcum is my choice). McCartney would not be bad. See what happens and discuss this after the winter meetings.
Liriano is exactly the type of pitcher referred above with a higher upside and probably cheaper. Did not see this coming, but while not my choice would not be the worst thing in the world.

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by Shane Wahl

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Just because two terrible teams like the Cubs and Royals are overpaying for garbage doesn't mean the rest of the teams are going to follow suit.

Feldman for 6 million is a freaking joke. Anything over 2.5 mil for him is overpaying.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The Cubs aren't doing the Twins any favors, that's for sure.

This is just false. First, the Cubs organization is very, very stupid. And they are my second favorite team, by far. They are just dumb.

Anyway, how short memories are. Remember Mark Buehrle? He got a RIDICULOUS contract.early last offseason and the market subsequently fell for a bunch of pitchers. I am not sure how to respond to such immediate responses like this. Good grief.

I think what you're saying was once true, but things are quickly changing just below the surface for the Cubs. They were very shrewd signing Maholm last year and flipping him for a top-10 pitching prospect from the Braves (Vizcaino) along with another good looking pitcher ( a scenario I begged the Twins to take by signing Maholm, Bedard and Jackson last spring).

As a Cubs fan, you do realize that between FA, trades and waiver acquisitions (another area where Ryan has been lacking, especially in such an advantageous position), the Cubs have acquired 10 RHP since July 31, right?!? They offloaded some hefty salaries ( and they have 3 more PTBNL picks coming besides) and got another top-10 infielder (Christian Villenueva). They established the future direction of the team when they signed Starlin Castro and Jorge Soler (going to be a monster) to relatively inexpensive long-term deals. And they got Rob Deer in as a hitting coach.

If things don't pan out in the first half of 2013, as is likely, they just flip these one-year contracts and unload more salaries for more prospects. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Watch out come 2014.


If Terry Ryan could only have been just half as "stupid" as the Cubs have been over the last 7 months.

Ok, that is a fair analysis. The Cubs are taking the view that they can spend money to trade for prospects as well (which the Twins foolishly didn't do in 2012. The Maholm trade was remarkable. Still though, that team makes Soriano kind of contracts and trades prospects for Matt Garza. They got rid of Matt Murton for no reason, and didn't bother with keeping Aramis for whatever dumb reason.

Originally Posted by Shane Wahl

Still though, that team makes Soriano kind of contracts and trades prospects for Matt Garza. They got rid of Matt Murton for no reason, and didn't bother with keeping Aramis for whatever dumb reason.

And how much of that are the new decision makers responsible for?