Thread: Is this the offseason to extend Revere?

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

Originally Posted by jokin

Does that mean Denard Span's deal was a mistake?

You aren't even comparing apples to apples here. Span had come off of two seasons posting an .800 OPS, strong on base skills, and above average defense at a key position. Revere has played for essentially 1 season and has done only the defensive side of things. There's legitimate question as to whether or not he will ever be able to top a .750 OPS and whether his on base skills will improve too. While Span didn't have a ton of minor league success either, Span did show improvement and then got the contract. If Revere can do that for two years, I guarantee you they will give him an extension to buy out his arb years, but if he does not, they should not.

We're not going to go anywhere this coming year, likely not next year...so trading Span for Meyer made sense when you look at it that way and it makes sense to do the same with Revere. Heck even Willingham. Bring up Hicks and Arcia, let them get their lumps and then they aren't getting their lumps when we're geared up to be a lot more competitive. Hicks has nothing left to prove and Arcia certainly doesn't

Originally Posted by ThePuck

We're not going to go anywhere this coming year, likely not next year...so trading Span for Meyer made sense when you look at it that way and it makes sense to do the same with Revere. Heck even Willingham. Bring up Hicks and Arcia, let them get their lumps and then they aren't getting their lumps when we're geared up to be a lot more competitive. Hicks has nothing left to prove and Arcia certainly doesn't

I personally disagree with the burn it down strategy you're promoting in this post but even if that is the route we head down throwing prospects to the wolves isn't a good solution. Hicks hasn't had an AB above AA and Arcia has only 250 AB's above A ball. It would be foolish to just hand either of them a position this coming year. If you trade Willingham, Morneau, et. al. there would be plenty of money to bring in veterans to fill the vacated spots for however long is needed before our young talent shows it is ready for the bigs.

Originally Posted by Oxtung

Originally Posted by ThePuck

We're not going to go anywhere this coming year, likely not next year...so trading Span for Meyer made sense when you look at it that way and it makes sense to do the same with Revere. Heck even Willingham. Bring up Hicks and Arcia, let them get their lumps and then they aren't getting their lumps when we're geared up to be a lot more competitive. Hicks has nothing left to prove and Arcia certainly doesn't

I personally disagree with the burn it down strategy you're promoting in this post but even if that is the route we head down throwing prospects to the wolves isn't a good solution. Hicks hasn't had an AB above AA and Arcia has only 250 AB's above A ball. It would be foolish to just hand either of them a position this coming year. If you trade Willingham, Morneau, et. al. there would be plenty of money to bring in veterans to fill the vacated spots for however long is needed before our young talent shows it is ready for the bigs.

Plenty of players skip AAA ball altogether. Maybe not Twins players, but still. Both these guys have 5 years in the minors. Don't need any more time there.

And perhaps you don't agree with burn it down...and I'm not sure that is what I'm promoting. Willingham is only signed for two more years...he won't be around for the future, and we aren't going anywhere in the next year, maybe two. He'll be gone when we get competitive again. And Revere isn't major league starting material IMO...

Hicks has struggled at nearly every level before sorting it out the following season. Arcia is 21 years old. How on earth can you say they don't need any more time in the minors?

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Hicks has struggled at nearly every level before sorting it out the following season. Arcia is 21 years old. How on earth can you say they don't need any more time in the minors?

I don't worry too much about age I guess. Arcia will be 22 a month into next season though. And Hicks is 23.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Willingham is only signed for two more years...he won't be around for the future, and we aren't going anywhere in the next year, maybe two. He'll be gone when we get competitive again.

Conversely, if you trade away all the valuable veterans, and aim for competitiveness with the young'uns in 2015, you need to go acquire some stopgap talent to bridge 2013-12014, hopefully for not too much money, and good enough that you can keep the fanbase engaged for those two years. We don't want a team of Rule-5 draftees that lose 110 games. A contract/talent combination like Willingham's is exactly what's called for. Wish we could get a few more like him - not all plodding powerhitting outfielders, I mean guys who fit the timetable and have some talent at their respective positions (pitching especially!). They aren't totally easy to find.

Guys like Morneau, signed only for 1 year, don't fit that two year bridge, and make sense to shop actively. If we had someone signed for 3+ years who wasn't really great and was blocking a young'un who'll be ready in 2015, likewise, but I don't think anyone other than Mauer is signed multi-year by now, and he's good enough to contribute heavily to a contending team in 2015-16.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Hicks has struggled at nearly every level before sorting it out the following season. Arcia is 21 years old. How on earth can you say they don't need any more time in the minors?

I don't worry too much about age I guess.

It's not only age. Arica has all of 250 ABs above A ball.

Patience. We should see both of them in 2013. There's no reason to rush them out of spring training.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Hicks has struggled at nearly every level before sorting it out the following season. Arcia is 21 years old. How on earth can you say they don't need any more time in the minors?

I don't worry too much about age I guess.

It's not only age. Arica has all of 250 ABs above A ball.

Patience. We should see both of them in 2013. There's no reason to rush them out of spring training.

I'm patient enough...but we need pitching right? For the future? If Revere and Willingham can get us those pitchers, I don't see any reason to not trade them and bring up Hicks and Arcia. Will they struggle, probably...why not let them struggle when next year is likely lost anyway?

I understand you argument, and perhaps you're right...I see that you could be...I just don't think we need to coddle every prospect making them all spend so much time in the minors.

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

I'm patient enough...but we need pitching right? For the future? If Revere and Willingham can get us those pitchers, I don't see any reason to not trade them and bring up Hicks and Arcia. Will they struggle, probably...why not let them struggle when next year is likely lost anyway?

You start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Arcia stats his last three years in the minors are comparable to Trouts first three before being he was brought up for a cup of coffee at the end of his third year. Would you agree? Why wasn't Arcia promoted to AAA already? That's not on him. It's not him that he was still in A+ ball going into his 5th year in the minors. Or still in rookie ball to start his 4th year

Originally Posted by ashburyjohn

Originally Posted by ThePuck

I'm patient enough...but we need pitching right? For the future? If Revere and Willingham can get us those pitchers, I don't see any reason to not trade them and bring up Hicks and Arcia. Will they struggle, probably...why not let them struggle when next year is likely lost anyway?

You start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.

That's a fair argument...one could also say nitpicking a player's game to death in the minors or staling him might take away confidence.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Arcia stats his last three years in the minors are comparable to Trouts first three before being he was brought up for a cup of coffee at the end of his third year. Would you agree? Why wasn't Arcia promoted to AAA already? That's not on him. It's not him that he was still in A+ ball going into his 5th year in the minors. Or still in rookie ball to start his 4th year

Look at the stats more closely. Arica was fast-tracked until he stalled out in 2011... Can't recall if he was injured or not. Now he's quickly advancing again.

Also, Trout never struck out nearly as much as Arcia. That's often a sign of bad breaking ball recognition, which means you absolutely do not advance that player. You try to let them sort that out in the minors, you don't let them flail away in the majors, completely overmatched.

You really need to stop referencing that he's a fifth year player. He's 21 years old. He signed at age 16, when Trout was probably chasing tail as a sophomore in high school.

Hunter as a first rounder posted an OPS barely in the .500s his first year in the minors (only 28 games) and went to A ball the next year. He didn't go through three rookie leagues or start his 4th season in rookie ball before moving to A ball. In A ball, he posted a .796 OPS, and got promoted to A+ ball the next season. That season, he posted an OPS of .678 and only had 4 games to start the next year in A+, posting an OPS in the .400s, before being promoted to AA only 4 games into his 4th season. Looking at those numbers, he should have never been promoted anywhere near that quickly. How many would be arguing against it?

But having Arcia start his 4th season in rookie ball isn't coddling him?

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Arcia stats his last three years in the minors are comparable to Trouts first three before being he was brought up for a cup of coffee at the end of his third year. Would you agree? Why wasn't Arcia promoted to AAA already? That's not on him. It's not him that he was still in A+ ball going into his 5th year in the minors. Or still in rookie ball to start his 4th year

Look at the stats more closely. Arica was fast-tracked until he stalled out in 2011... Can't recall if he was injured or not. Now he's quickly advancing again.

Also, Trout never struck out nearly as much as Arcia. That's often a sign of bad breaking ball recognition, which means you absolutely do not advance that player. You try to let them sort that out in the minors, you don't let them flail away in the majors, completely overmatched.

You really need to stop referencing that he's a fifth year player. He's 21 years old. He signed at age 16, when Trout was probably chasing tail as a sophomore in high school.

Fast tracked? He started his 4th season in the minors still in rookie ball...and he was 17 his first year in the minors.. Like Hunter was

Look, I can see your point of view...I respect your point of view...I just don't agree.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Arcia stats his last three years in the minors are comparable to Trouts first three before being he was brought up for a cup of coffee at the end of his third year. Would you agree? Why wasn't Arcia promoted to AAA already? That's not on him. It's not him that he was still in A+ ball going into his 5th year in the minors. Or still in rookie ball to start his 4th year

Look at the stats more closely. Arica was fast-tracked until he stalled out in 2011... Can't recall if he was injured or not. Now he's quickly advancing again.

Also, Trout never struck out nearly as much as Arcia. That's often a sign of bad breaking ball recognition, which means you absolutely do not advance that player. You try to let them sort that out in the minors, you don't let them flail away in the majors, completely overmatched.

You really need to stop referencing that he's a fifth year player. He's 21 years old. He signed at age 16, when Trout was probably chasing tail as a sophomore in high school.

Fast tracked? He started his 4th season in the minors still in rookie ball...and he was 17 his first year in the minors.. Like Hunter was

Because he was under 18 and from another country. Teams keep those guys in rookie ball to teach them English and basic life stuff. Every team does this. It's not unique to the Twins.

These players are adjusting to a lot more than breaking balls. You can't toss an 18 year old from Venezuela into the big leagues and expect success.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Even Mike Trout received over 500 PAs in AA/AAA. There's "not coddling a player" and there's "dangerously rushing a prospect for no reason".

With that said, if an offer is received for Willingham and it's good, Ryan should take it. Two months of Mastrioanni won't kill us.

Arcia stats his last three years in the minors are comparable to Trouts first three before being he was brought up for a cup of coffee at the end of his third year. Would you agree? Why wasn't Arcia promoted to AAA already? That's not on him. It's not him that he was still in A+ ball going into his 5th year in the minors. Or still in rookie ball to start his 4th year

Look at the stats more closely. Arica was fast-tracked until he stalled out in 2011... Can't recall if he was injured or not. Now he's quickly advancing again.

Also, Trout never struck out nearly as much as Arcia. That's often a sign of bad breaking ball recognition, which means you absolutely do not advance that player. You try to let them sort that out in the minors, you don't let them flail away in the majors, completely overmatched.

You really need to stop referencing that he's a fifth year player. He's 21 years old. He signed at age 16, when Trout was probably chasing tail as a sophomore in high school.

Fast tracked? He started his 4th season in the minors still in rookie ball...and he was 17 his first year in the minors.. Like Hunter was

Because he was under 18 and from another country. Teams keep those guys in rookie ball to teach them English and basic life stuff. Every team does this. It's not unique to the Twins.

These players are adjusting to a lot more than breaking balls. You can't toss an 18 year old from Venezuela into the big leagues and expect success.

I wasn't suggesting tossing an 18 year old from Venezuela into the Bigs. I was suggesting tossing a 22 year old from Venezuala into the Bigs and accepting the fact he may struggle :-)

I've enjoyed the debate. You made a compelling argument.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Look at the stats more closely. Arica was fast-tracked until he stalled out in 2011... Can't recall if he was injured or not. Now he's quickly advancing again.

Arcia had an elbow injury that prevented him from fielding in Beloit. He went to Fort Myers to rehab and ended up just staying there. He essentially skipped low-A altogether (81 PAs), Hicks spent two full years there.

I'm not suggesting anything... just pointing that out.

Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Originally Posted by jokin

Originally Posted by Kobs

The Twins might want to wait an see if Ben Revere ever actually becomes any good before giving him a big guaranteed contract.

Your point may be moot, Revere apparently is already drawing some interest, if you could you get a C+/B- rated "A level minor league experience SP for Revere, this whole discussion is academic. Or, does "teams with pitchers on the block" mean a Vargas-type from Seattle?

from MLB Traderumors:

"Although the Twins seem to be looking at plenty of pitching options in free agency, the team has also been more active in trade talks than expected, says Crasnick. Teams with pitchers on the block have approached the Twins about both Ben Revere and Josh Willingham."

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/minnesota_twins/index.html#ty30IECPbULUgyHk.99

If a team offers any SP (or SP prospect) of value for Revere the Twins need to hop on it ASAP. They already have a superior option who is almost MLB ready in Aaron Hicks. I would prefer not to start Hicks clock this early this year, but if it brings back pitching, go for it!

Hoo-Rah. We have finally found something that we are in 100% agreement on. I just hope our mutual faith in Hicks being the real deal is realized (even though it's been just one year of the "real deal" so far)- a guy who would bring to the table the BEST traits of both Span and Revere and hopefully those other tools that neither posess.