Thread: Mackey: Twins Likely Done Making Significant Moves this Year

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

The fuzzy wuzzy forum isn't open yet, don't hold your breath.

I couldnt help but lol at that one. haha.

Originally Posted by edavis0308

I couldnt help but lol at that one. haha.

All in good fun.

Originally Posted by old nurse

I view it as an honest mistake, not a repeated one. I really don't expect you to get the difference between them and why it is OK to rip on one and not the other.

It was a mistake, but it's not as though free agency takes place over the course of 24 hours. It was a miscalculation on the Twins part and they failed to adapt to it even though the Cubs gave every team a huge heads up that free agency was going to head this way when they "overpaid" for Baker and Feldmen. So in the sense that free agent after free agent passed with Ryan expecting them to sign for less money or less years, yes it is a repeated mistake. He's had two months to adjust to original mistake.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

2015 isn't realistic.

Agree 1000%.

The same "see no evil" crowd that finds excuses for why the Twins couldn't, or shouldn't, improve their team this winter, is drinking some strong kool-aid when they proclaim the team is "building for a run in 2014/15."

If you're planning on making a run based on players currently at A and AA levels, particularly pitching (of which there's no abundance, even with the minor league additions this winter), you better lengthen your timeline by a few years, at best.

It's why personally, I hate "playing for the future," and why improving your team now, immediately, is pretty much always the way to go. The old bird in the hand adage and all.

Besides which, as has been repeatedly pointed out by several posters here--and ignored by the rest--there is no reason signing a pitcher to a 4 or 5 year contract now would negatively impact the team in 2015, or 2016, when all these minimum wage all-stars are populating the roster, no matter how poorly he performs. And he might just still be an asset.

"I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus"

Originally Posted by edavis0308

Look. Every thread is becoming the same pissing match. Maybe you can use your Jedi mind powers and PM me which ones are free of all this griping so I don't have to sift through it myself.

I thought every thread here was dedicated to putting out untenable, unrealistic ideas. If not that then pissing and moaning. No need for facts as all are experts here. The baseball season will start, then there will be some semblance of a discussion of prospects. With, of course, some pissing and moaning. That you complain of people being pissy is rather pot like of you.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Agree 1000%.

The same "see no evil" crowd that finds excuses for why the Twins couldn't, or shouldn't, improve their team this winter, is drinking some strong kool-aid when they proclaim the team is "building for a run in 2014/15."

If you're planning on making a run based on players currently at A and AA levels, particularly pitching (of which there's no abundance, even with the minor league additions this winter), you better lengthen your timeline by a few years, at best.

It's why personally, I hate "playing for the future," and why improving your team now, immediately, is pretty much always the way to go. The old bird in the hand adage and all.

Besides which, as has been repeatedly pointed out by several posters here--and ignored by the rest--there is no reason signing a pitcher to a 4 or 5 year contract now would negatively impact the team in 2015, or 2016, when all these minimum wage all-stars are populating the roster, no matter how poorly he performs. And he might just still be an asset.

So what your saying is it is unrealistic to expect a 25 man roster made up of 20 pre-arbitration eligible players to win the World Series? Blasphamous.

Originally Posted by old nurse

The evidence of the claim was based on as mentioned. I acknowledged that players can be traded at any time. Did not see that Burton or Doumit was traded. Do you supose they were signed then resigned because they are viewed ad valuable contributors to the team rather than a commodity? Ignore what you want. Be as the other poster called you.

Wait...what? You have ZERO evidence of their intent. Your "evidence" (loose at best to call it that) is more about their decision to deal him. And then you're just connecting dots you think are logical, but are really no evidence at all. They certainly are no different than someone saying "We said we'd do this......we didn't do it....we did this instead....therefore we were never in on any of the big FAs" The argument is the EXACT SAME. Your normally sane, balanced takes are taking a real hit with this near pathological need to defend the FO no matter what.

I don't doubt that they were resigned because they were valuable. But I also have no doubt that every short-term deal is negotiated with full knowledge on both sides of the table that a trade is significantly more likely because of the contract length. Again, this isn't that radical or difficult.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

Wait...what? You have ZERO evidence of their intent. Your "evidence" (loose at best to call it that) is more about their decision to deal him. And then you're just connecting dots you think are logical, but are really no evidence at all. They certainly are no different than someone saying "We said we'd do this......we didn't do it....we did this instead....therefore we were never in on any of the big FAs" The argument is the EXACT SAME. Your normally sane, balanced takes are taking a real hit with this near pathological need to defend the FO no matter what.
Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post.
I don't doubt that they were resigned because they were valuable. But I also have no doubt that every short-term deal is negotiated with full knowledge on both sides of the table that a trade is significantly more likely because of the contract length. Again, this isn't that radical or difficult.

Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post

Originally Posted by old nurse

Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post

If it's anything like your "evidence" my flaws can rest easy.

I don't think mine is a controversial position at all. I'm not bad-mouthing Ryan's abilities or calling for his head. I'm not calling the offseason a failure. I'm merely suggesting that what Ryan said pre-offseason is not merely fodder for naive souls who wish to believe the best. Many die-hard Twins fans believed his words were a genuine attempt to communicate expectations. His feet should be held to that fire, whatever reason there may be for the failure to live up to them.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

If it's anything like your "evidence" my flaws can rest easy.

I don't think mine is a controversial position at all. I'm not bad-mouthing Ryan's abilities or calling for his head. I'm not calling the offseason a failure. I'm merely suggesting that what Ryan said pre-offseason is not merely fodder for naive souls who wish to believe the best. Many die-hard Twins fans believed his words were a genuine attempt to communicate expectations. His feet should be held to that fire, whatever reason there may be for the failure to live up to them.

I believe I said your ideas have flaws, not controversy.

Originally Posted by old nurse

I believe I said your ideas have flaws, not controversy.

I fail to see how there is a flaw in that, it's using his words and comparing them to the results and finding plenty of room for criticism.

Originally Posted by TheLeviathan

I fail to see how there is a flaw in that, it's using his words and comparing them to the results and finding plenty of room for criticism.

Ryan failed to sign a significant healthy front line starter. I think most would agree on that. Where you start on something, what you think the situation is with available information you have, and what it turns out in the end is not always the same. Why the starting pitching free agent situation with the Twins came to be that way it went would have many factors. Ryan was hopeful at the start of the free agent period and expressed an optimistic statement. He made one statement in the middle of the process about not being able to give money away. There may be no simple answer that you are looking for as to what happened in between. Much more than just Ryan was involved. There never will be any proof as to the thought processes behind the decisions made as the discussions of the process and negotiations are kept internal.
One statement is viable to you that he made at the start of the process in regards to signing players. The statement that Ryan made "Sometimes you can't give money away" means absolutely nothing to you. Why would you make a statement like that? Is it a statement of frustration? Is it a bald face lie? It is not a black and white statement but it clearly should reflect something happened in the process of negotiations with players and agents. I could speculate that he offered someone like Guthrie, Blanton or McCarthy more money than they got elsewhere. I hope he wasn't talking about Feldman. After that statement in regards to not being able to give away money is when they went bargain shopping.

It is hard to have hope after the last two seasons. I guess I would rather have hope dashed once again than just being miserable from the start.

None of us have enough information to accurately evaluate Ryan's performance. We will never know about all of the offers that may (or may not) have been made. But the low payroll bothers me. If the Twins spend more later in the year, I will feel like they are being fairer to the fans in terms of their commitment to giving us a quality product.

Originally Posted by glunn

None of us have enough information to accurately evaluate Ryan's performance. We will never know about all of the offers that may (or may not) have been made.

No, we'll never know for certain, but it's a pretty safe bet given the complete lack of rumors and reports surrounding the team concerning quality starting pitching, that they either didn't try very hard, or at all.

If a concerted effort had been there, chances are we would have heard something, anything.

Media members such as Darrin Wolfson, have stated that the Twins have made very few Free Agent offers.

Personally, I don't need to factor in all the speculation offered up as "plausible reasons" for Ryan's miserable failure of an offseason.

Results count. I'll judge by those.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Personally, I don't need to factor in all the speculation offered up as "plausible reasons" for Ryan's miserable failure of an offseason.

Results count. I'll judge by those.

There will always be excuse to defend the FOs lack of ability.

-If we have a season like 2010, no need to 'waste money' because we won 94 games and ran away with the division. Those guys are surely good enough to repeat, no need to worry about improving a good club. Injuries NEVER happen.

-If we have seasons like we've had the last two, well, no one wants to come here, so we can't give the money away. You can't pay good players to come here cause we're so bad.

-Before that, it was bad revenue from the Metrodome.

Wha will be the excuse when we finish with a winning record in 2-3 three years and it turns out we STILL don't go get quality FAs to help?

The defenders have their bases covered...just insert new excuse...

Originally Posted by Highabove

Media members such as Darrin Wolfson, have stated that the Twins have made very few Free Agent offers.

There were very few quality free agents so therefore there would be only a few offers. Takes two to negotiate.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

Personally, I don't need to factor in all the speculation offered up as "plausible reasons" for Ryan's miserable failure of an offseason.

Results count. I'll judge by those.

Exactly. Because even if the Twins made better offers to free agents but were spurned (however unlikely) it's on Ryan and the front office to find out why and remedy the issues these free agents have with the organization.