Thread: Zulgad: Terry Ryan is Good News for Ron Gardenhire

Shifts baby. Shifts.

Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault. If 2013 is yet another 90+ loss season some reason must be used to hang this around Gardenhire's neck. Can't use starting pitching (again)--that one would be on the Front Office. Injuries? Could happen, but can Gardenhire be blamed for that? No.

Consider when Boston axed Francona: he was blamed for losing control of the team and the end-result was a September collapse that left Boston out of the playoffs. I think that might have been used on TK but to use it this year? Well the Twins would first have to seriously contend, make a significant mid-year addition, and then collapse at the end for that. Buy a Powerball ticket instead, the probabilities are about the same but the payoff is much higher. If Gardenhire were to be sacked, a medical reason would likely be cited. First, it's happened before, second, well to be kind Gardy isn't a shining example of fitness, and third it can be surmised that he has "had enough" of MLB managing anyway and doesn't need the money. I don't believe the Twins would axe Gardenhire and blame him for the losing seasons, they would use a different reason.

Originally Posted by Kwak

Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault.

But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?

There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.

Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.

Originally Posted by ThePuck

But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?

They're not Gardenhire. They were bit players and were the equivalent of LOOGYs and 3rd string-catchers in the scheme of things--not responsible for results and unknown to all but a few.

Originally Posted by Mark_RM

I agree that as long as TR stays, Gardenhire probably will too. If TR thinks that its OK to have a manager that values bunting ability in a #2 hitter, another loosing season isn't going to change his mind.

wish we had bunting ability in our #2 hitter last year and hope this year he will be an improvement in that department...
last years team we a joke when i came to laying down a bunt

Originally Posted by ThePuck

Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.

Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.

Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)

Originally Posted by johnnydakota

Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)

I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation.There's a difference between throwing guys under the bus and just being honest, developing a good relationship doesn't mean you have to stick your head in the sand and treat everyone with kid gloves.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation.There's a difference between throwing guys under the bus and just being honest, developing a good relationship doesn't mean you have to stick your head in the sand and treat everyone with kid gloves.

I remember one postgame interview. Valencia had a very good offensive game...even had a homer. No kudos for that...not a peep...all Gardy wanted to do was talk about how he misplayed a bunt...he kept talking about it. Thing is, if the bunt had been laid down properly, Danny would have made the play...

Originally Posted by ThePuck

I remember one postgame interview. Valencia had a very good offensive game...even had a homer. No kudos for that...not a peep...all Gardy wanted to do was talk about how he misplayed a bunt...he kept talking about it. Thing is, if the bunt had been laid down properly, Danny would have made the play...

Valencia had likely patted himself on the back enough, Gardy didn't feel like he needed to.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

Valencia had likely patted himself on the back enough, Gardy didn't feel like he needed to.

Cute :-)

Originally Posted by johnnydakota

If nothing else he should have gotten Washington to throw in Lannon , a player they were going to non tender any way....

Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods, a view that Washington later seconded.

Originally Posted by ashburyjohn

Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods

Didn't stop him from signing Corriea to a two year deal...

Maybe Ryan didn't want him cause he didn't have any real DL history....

Originally Posted by ashburyjohn

Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods, a view that Washington later seconded.

I might buy that, if not for the fact that he signed Pelfrey and Correia. I'm guessing that he felt Meyer was such an overpay for Span that he got out of there quick.

Originally Posted by twinsnorth49

I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation....

Amen and then some.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think there's a real possibility this is Gardy's last season as Twins manager. If they lose 90 again--and they certainly could--my guess is he's gone. They might not call it a firing, but there'll be a new manager in the dugout in 2014. Gardy's had a good run, but a new manager to go along with the youth movement will be too appealing to pass up.

Originally Posted by USAFChief

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think there's a real possibility this is Gardy's last season as Twins manager. If they lose 90 again--and they certainly could--my guess is he's gone. They might not call it a firing, but there'll be a new manager in the dugout in 2014. Gardy's had a good run, but a new manager to go along with the youth movement will be too appealing to pass up.

I don't know who has the majority, but I agree that 90 losses lead to this being Gardy's last season. I've also been back and forth about a dozen times on whether I feel like it's right. I know I'll think it sucks if it comes to pass that way, for a variety of reasons.

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp

Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).

The funny thing is that, by pyth w/l, Maddon's Rays have generally underachieved. He's only had one season where he won more games than his pyth W/L record would have guessed.