HOF - Fred "Crime Dog" McGriff

I looked at McGriff a few yrs ago and agreed that he was just below the cut. There are too many sluggers from that era that were just as good or better. And many of them don't have steroid links.

McGriff falls behind Thomas, thome and McGwire (I don't care about the steroids for McGwire but that's another issue) of 1Bman not in the hall and right in with Bagwell, Edgar Martinez and Carlos Delgado. I would put him before Delgado in this tier but I don't think Delgado has a chance to make it. Palmeiro falls into this tier but I'm okay if you want to keep out marginal HOF'ers. And there are still guys like Helton, Grace, Mattingly, Will Clark, Galaragga, and probably another 6-10 similar marginal candidates.

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Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge

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Originally Posted by thrylos98

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Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge

I am of the thought that Dave Parker should be in the HOF. I have read in some places that he was involved with cocaine in the late 70's, early 80's and that had lead to his non-inclusion. If that is the case - shame on the voters. The Cobra was great!

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yeah
the coke scandal in the 80s was pretty big. Lots of people involved including Keith Hernandez and our beloved HOFer Paul Molitor.

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Hey Thrylos. I do not know much about this subject other than what I typed (other than I knew Molitor was a user). What is the story on the cocaine thing?

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It was called the Pittsburg drug trials......Dale Berra, Lee Lacy, Lee Mazzilli, John Milner,, Dave Parker,, and Rod Scurry — and other notable major league players — Claudell Washingtin, Willie Mays Aikens, Vida Bue, Enols Cabell ,Al Holland, Hernandez, Jeffrey Leonard, Tim Raines, Joaquin Andujar and Lonnie Smith testified with immunity in 1985 against certain dealers.
Raines admitted to sliding headfirst to not break the coke vials that he carried on him as he snorted during games. Milner admitted to buying uppers from HOFers Willie Stargell & WIllie Mays.
Molitor wasnt involved but 7 players were suspended for a yr, 4 for 60days but were allowed to play if they donated 5-10% of their salary to charity.

The HOF, in my opinion, would be better off keeping more fringe guys out than in. Dave Parker, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo .... these are guys who you could build equally strong cases for them being out as in. And in those cases, you're better off just leaving them out. I worry the place is already becoming the Hall of Very Good.

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Originally Posted by TK10

The HOF, in my opinion, would be better off keeping more fringe guys out than in. Dave Parker, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo .... these are guys who you could build equally strong cases for them being out as in. And in those cases, you're better off just leaving them out. I worry the place is already becoming the Hall of Very Good.

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There are just as many guys from 60s/70s that you could argue shouldnt be in either IMO if you are goin with the HOVGood....Duke Snider, Don Drysdale, Lou Boudreau, Bob Lemon, etc among many. Those older players are now just known as HOFers, but they were also the Dawson/Blyleven/Rice's of their era

Bert amassed 90 bWAR, 110 fWAR, he doesn't really belong in the same conversation as these guys.

greengoblinrulz:

I agree the Hall of Very Good goes way back, but I think it's getting worse. Barry Larkin? I'm not so sure. From what I read most people think Omar Vizquel is going to get in. Really? As for your list, I agree with everyone except Drysdale.

First off, how can we be so sure McGriff wasn't on the juice? Between 95 and 98 (his 31-35 year old seasons) his OPS was .830.

Then he suddenly puts up a .957 OPS in his age 35 season and a .930 in his age 37 season?

Either way, he is a borderline at best case and he played in the steroid era, no hall for him. Also it seems like there were a ton of better 1st baseman that were around during his career as well.

The Duke of Flatbush.... What???

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Originally Posted by snepp

Bert amassed 90 bWAR, 110 fWAR, he doesn't really belong in the same conversation as these guys.

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Yup. 12th highest WAR amongst all pitchers ever. (and 39th overall)

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Yup. 12th highest WAR amongst all pitchers ever. (and 39th overall)

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Wow, we agree on something, it feels like it's been months since that happened. Or maybe it's just the putridity of the season making it seem that way.

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Originally Posted by snepp

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

Yup. 12th highest WAR amongst all pitchers ever. (and 39th overall)

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Wow, we agree on something, it feels like it's been months since that happened. Or maybe it's just the putridity of the season making it seem that way.

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We agree on important issues. We disagree on the handling of a 28 year old AAA relief pitcher.

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

First off, how can we be so sure McGriff wasn't on the juice? Between 95 and 98 (his 31-35 year old seasons) his OPS was .830.

Then he suddenly puts up a .957 OPS in his age 35 season and a .930 in his age 37 season?

Either way, he is a borderline at best case and he played in the steroid era, no hall for him. Also it seems like there were a ton of better 1st baseman that were around during his career as well.

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That's one of the great tragedies of the steroid era. A guy gets older, and has a few better seasons that are above his average (which can statistically happen without steroids) yet people assume it's because he was cheating. Not everyone's career is a linear progression towards a peak then a linear regression towards retirement.

I realize that wasn't explained well. I'm saying not everyone goes 20,22,24,26,30,35,40,37,33,29,25,20 homers in their career. it's perfectly normal and understandable to have some statistical variation over the course of 10-20 years of a career where someone drops a 40 or upper 30 among some upper 20 seasons. You have to factor in things like health, or just dumb luck. The difference between a homer and a flyout can be as simple as the ballpark, the direction of the wind, etc.

In short, seeing a few good seasons in a person's mid 30's is sadly automatically linked to steroids now.

on steroids with 'Crime Dawg'....fact that he maintained such a high level during his mid 30s, in the middle of the steroid era, when players of the decade before started fading fast in early/mid 30s makes me unsure. Roids isnt about size/bulk but about strength/recovery many times.

Duke Snider took 10 years to make the Hall....definately not great, by defination of his voting media peers.
Drysdale, was the Blyleven of his era...also makin it in his 10th year. 209wins & 6.5K/9 arent mindblowing great....just very good IMO

Vizquel is a guy I would like to see get in but not on his offensive numbers, which are extremely solid, but as the elite defensive shortstop of his era. I think Alan Trammel is also a guy who is getting shortchanged as a SS. No problem with Larkin, but he made it quicker than I thought.....12time All Star, 9time Silver Slugger, 2 gold gloves, won a World Series and an MVP----pretty solid if not great.

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Originally Posted by TK10

I agree the Hall of Very Good goes way back, but I think it's getting worse. Barry Larkin? I'm not so sure.

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Barry Larkin had a career WAR ~40% higher than Puckett. If you think Kirby should be in the Hall, it's hard to make an argument to keep Barry out.

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Originally Posted by jm3319

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

First off, how can we be so sure McGriff wasn't on the juice? Between 95 and 98 (his 31-35 year old seasons) his OPS was .830.

Then he suddenly puts up a .957 OPS in his age 35 season and a .930 in his age 37 season?

Either way, he is a borderline at best case and he played in the steroid era, no hall for him. Also it seems like there were a ton of better 1st baseman that were around during his career as well.

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That's one of the great tragedies of the steroid era. A guy gets older, and has a few better seasons that are above his average (which can statistically happen without steroids) yet people assume it's because he was cheating. Not everyone's career is a linear progression towards a peak then a linear regression towards retirement.

I realize that wasn't explained well. I'm saying not everyone goes 20,22,24,26,30,35,40,37,33,29,25,20 homers in their career. it's perfectly normal and understandable to have some statistical variation over the course of 10-20 years of a career where someone drops a 40 or upper 30 among some upper 20 seasons. You have to factor in things like health, or just dumb luck. The difference between a homer and a flyout can be as simple as the ballpark, the direction of the wind, etc.

In short, seeing a few good seasons in a person's mid 30's is sadly automatically linked to steroids now.

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I'm of the opinion that anywhere between 50%-60% of the players were juicing during any of those "times"

I think its ridiculous personally to keep Bonds out of the hall of fame, roids or not he is one of the best 5 hitters of all time. Ditto with Clemens, though both are dicks, but being a dick shouldn't keep you out of the hall of fame (just ask Ty Cobb)

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

First off, how can we be so sure McGriff wasn't on the juice? Between 95 and 98 (his 31-35 year old seasons) his OPS was .830.

Then he suddenly puts up a .957 OPS in his age 35 season and a .930 in his age 37 season?

Either way, he is a borderline at best case and he played in the steroid era, no hall for him. Also it seems like there were a ton of better 1st baseman that were around during his career as well.

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The Ghost of Vodka Dave has become a company man now. You are now rendered useless to your cohorts. McGriff is deserving and I'd like you to name comparable 1B from the era that are HOF worthy? Steroids??? Please.

popular arguement that Bonds was a HOFer when he started juicing in 98 already (400HR/SBs). I agree with it. He got caught up in it but everyone pretty much agrees he didnt use till then.
McGuire & Sosa were pretty much HR hitters or bust.....wouldnt go with em anyways.
Wouldnt even think of Clemens till Maddux/Glavine/Morris make it.
Many people assume Piazza was a user (myself included...retired before testing), he's eligible this yr with Schilling (not till Morris for me) & Biggio (huge fan....over Bagwell who used IMO)
Larry Walker was a sensational hitter but he's not hurt by steroids but by playing a huge block of time in Coors Field & he's at 22% after 3yrs.

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Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge

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Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave

First off, how can we be so sure McGriff wasn't on the juice? Between 95 and 98 (his 31-35 year old seasons) his OPS was .830.

Then he suddenly puts up a .957 OPS in his age 35 season and a .930 in his age 37 season?

Either way, he is a borderline at best case and he played in the steroid era, no hall for him. Also it seems like there were a ton of better 1st baseman that were around during his career as well.

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The Ghost of Vodka Dave has become a company man now. You are now rendered useless to your cohorts. McGriff is deserving and I'd like you to name comparable 1B from the era that are HOF worthy? Steroids??? Please.

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Kab already did.

Again, why is it such a known fact that he didn't do roids? IMO everyone not named Denny Hocking or Pat Meares in that era shouldn't be assumed to be a non user.

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Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz

popular arguement that Bonds was a HOFer when he started juicing in 98 already (400HR/SBs). I agree with it. He got caught up in it but everyone pretty much agrees he didnt use till then.
McGuire & Sosa were pretty much HR hitters or bust.....wouldnt go with em anyways.
Wouldnt even think of Clemens till Maddux/Glavine/Morris make it.
Many people assume Piazza was a user (myself included...retired before testing), he's eligible this yr with Schilling (not till Morris for me) & Biggio (huge fan....over Bagwell who used IMO)
Larry Walker was a sensational hitter but he's not hurt by steroids but by playing a huge block of time in Coors Field & he's at 22% after 3yrs.

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Maddux and Glavine will easily make it.

Not sure why you are throwing Jack Morris into the mix, Morris is nowhere near HOF caliber IMO. Was he a great "big game pitcher?" yes. But he has a career 39.3 WAR (145th overall amongst all pitchers) and he had a 105 ERA+

He was a solid #2, but solid #2's don't go into the hall of fame.

Also the thought that Bagwell definately used is backed by zero evidence whatsoever, his name never came up in any reports, no?

I'd put Piazza in the hall no doubt, dude is the best hitting catcher of all time (even those his defense was bad, he still stuck at the position)

It's alot like Blyleven. It depends on who is on the ballot and how close Fred is to dropping off of it. Very good numbers, and a very good player who deserves to get in after a while. He never was a first ballot type guy.