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Thread: Big Shock (Sarcasm): Tanaka to Yankees

  1. #81
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    FWIW, I'm not a 'spend it just to spend' type. While the rotation is improved, is anyone 100% happy with where the rotation stands now? Is this rotation going to get us what we want; if not, what do we still need to do? Wait for Meyer to come up?

    Tanaka totally distorted & blocked up an already thin market- but we'll now see how much real interest the Twins still have in Arroyo, Garza, etc now. That will be the interesting ripple effect here.

    As for the Cards, I too take them as a model org- heck, they invented the farm system and all you have to do is look at how many rookies stepped up last year. Enviable. Still, they do open up the checkbook when they see a need (Peralta, Bourjous) and close it when they don't- NOT bringing Beltran back may have been their best move/non-move this OS. Smart club.

    Let the Yanquis speng/gamble big- it's what they do. Tanaka is a big risk, but who sees Nolasco as a #1 starter? If there are better pitching options out there, then I want the Twins in the room, in that conversation, period. Our rotation woes will not fix themselves.
    F5, then post.

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    johnnydakota (01-23-2014)

  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    How many titles have the Rangers and Tigers had the past two decades?

    I love how the Twins make the playoffs 6 times in 9 years....yet many of you folks say "Playoffs mean nothing, its all about the titles" and yet you bring up the Tigers and Rangers (Two teams who haven't won a title anytime recently) as an example as such a much superior org then the Twins.

    It's hard to take those people seriously at times....
    But those teams didnt go 1 and done the last 6 times they made the playoffs ....did they?

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    A's ponied up for Cespedes...yet the Twins paid Mauer significantly more money. Beane has exactly as many ALCS and World Series appearances as Ryan has had.

    The Rays had a nice run no doubt, but have lost in the first round of the playoffs the 3 times. Additionally, I am pretty sure the Twins have the consensus best farm system in baseball...so shouldn't the Twins scouting department reap some of the praise for that? As far as the "GM with a pair of balls" comment, that is not even worth a retort as it is immature and pointless.
    well you are wrong about the best farm system , I believe we are ranked 5th and 7th by the 2 most ackowleged periodicals

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Yes, let's look at that more closely.

    Players lost:
    Morneau- Injury issues that nobody could predict, honestly, was it worth trying to bring him back this year?
    Alexi Casilla- You arguing the Twins should have kept him around?
    Cabrera- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?
    Crede- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?
    Delmon- Terrible. Twins should have kept him around?
    Gomez-Did absolutely nothing for the Twins. Got Hardy in return (another issue in itself) Late bloomer, yeah the Twins should have kept him around, but hard to argue with them trading him at the time.
    Cuddyer- I looooovvved Cuddyer, however 3 years/32 mil was a bit much. Since leaving one very mediocre year one nice year offensively...provides nothing really in defensive value.
    Kubel- (Actually back on the roster)
    Span- Pretty sure we will all take the Meyer for Span trade at this point and moving forward.
    Punto- I miss him, but does anyone else?
    Harris- Is he in baseball anymore?
    Redmond- Coach now
    Tolbert- Out of baseball
    Buscher- Out of baseball
    Morales- Out of baseball
    Blackburn- Out of baseball (more or less)
    Liriano- Yeah, this one hurts/sucks.
    Baker- Has done zero since leaving the Twins due to injury issues
    Slowey- Other than a few decent starts in Miami (then demoted to bullpen) has done nothing.
    Pavano- Retired.
    Nathan- Stud, no doubt. Hard to justify the Twins giving him 10+ mil a year (esp with Perkins)
    Guerrier- Solid, but has regressed since leaving, Twins were smart not to overpay.
    Mijares- Didn't like letting him go, but mehhhhhh had a rough year last year.
    Keppel- Out of baseball.
    Crain- This was a mistake.


    Other than Liriano (To be frank, I wanted him to stay but he didn't do much of anything his last several years here) Nathan (Not a huge loss with Perkins stepping in) and Crain, I can't really see where the Twins have really messed up letting those other players from 09 go.... in fact, I think because of this it gives em a real nice shot to take a real nice run in 2015/2016/2017 etc.
    the premise of that statment is that we built a stadium so we could keep our own players and sign quality free agents, I just pointed out that we have done niether......

  6. #85
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I don't know if that's true at all. From what I've read of NPB, it has a smattering of MLB-quality players, several more AAA/AAAA guys, and a slew of guys who would struggle to round out a AA roster. In short, their talent level is all over the place.

    And yeah, Tanaka might be the #1 prospect in MLB and he might be worth tens of millions of dollars...

    Except the Yankees didn't give him tens of millions. They gave him $150 million. That's Ervin Santana and Matt Garza.

    What would you rather have, Tanaka or Santana/Garza?

    There is a ton of downside with Tanaka and not much upside when he's paid like Zack Greinke without the experience of Zack Greinke.
    Santana and Garza are still FAs. I don't know what they will wind up signing for but I suspect this board will be in sticker shock over that too, as it is whenever anyone signs anywhere.

    Second, the Yankees are saving a spot for Pineda so they have only 1 open for a major FA - Sabathia, Nova, Kuroda, Pineda. So the question you should ask is, would you rather have Tanaka, Garza, or Santana. Bear in mind the Yankees were an 87 win team last year.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I don't think the Rules need to be changed at all. The Yankees have won one title in the last 13 years, during that time the teams to win multiple ones are the Red Sox, Cardinals and Giants have all won multiple world series, I am not sure anyone would claim they have some huge advantage when it comes to payroll (Red Sox...ok...maybe, but for the most part those teams were built from within and shrewdly)

    In fact, as much as I hate the Cards, they are a premier example on how to build a team: Build GREAT in house talent, continue to replenish the farm, and make some smart plays on the FA market (and realize when its time to let people go- Like Pujols, Beltran etc)
    So if I glean correctly from your statment is that over the last 13 years ,the Red Sox, Giants and the Cards management have done a much better job then ours has? hmmm interesting
    Maybe we should add some of those teams personal to our brain thrust, maybe even a guy from the Rays?

  8. #87
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    the premise of that statment is that we built a stadium so we could keep our own players and sign quality free agents, I just pointed out that we have done niether......
    What was that Joe Mauer contract then? Also I think Nolasco and Hughes quantify as quality free agents, ditto with Willingham as well. Additionally....the off-season isn't even close to over yet!!!

  9. #88
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    So if I glean correctly from your statment is that over the last 13 years ,the Red Sox, Giants and the Cards management have done a much better job then ours has? hmmm interesting
    Maybe we should add some of those teams personal to our brain thrust, maybe even a guy from the Rays?
    This isn't college football, you can't just go out and poach the other teams top guys. In 2-3 years when Meyer, Sano, Buxton, Arcia, Rosario, Gibson etc are all leading this team to glory, perhaps people will be saying this same thing about the Twins brain trust. Hell, they already were saying it about the Twins when they won the division 6 times in 9 years (no small feat for ANY team)

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.
    Yet none of them won with major free agent signings. The Yankees teams that were so successful were built through their minor league system and the willingness to take on contracts in trades. When they turned to free agency, their team success went down. The Rangers built from within and continue to have a very highly ranked farm system that fills roster holes. Heck, one of the biggest propulsion moves for the Rangers to succeed was a trade where they acquired prospects and traded away an established star before he hit free agency. The Tigers built their rotation through trades (even Sanchez was traded for and then kept through free agency), and they've traded away the biggest free agent splash they made. The Red Sox just a season and a half ago traded away a collection of free agent signings and then utilized trades and small signings to win this year. The perception that these teams with high payrolls did such by signing the best free agents every year is simply incorrect. Often the top dollar free agent goes to a team like the Mariners or White Sox or Angels trying to make a jump, and interestingly, none of them have made that leap to championship caliber despite their spending.

    I'll repeat that money has never bought wins, and it never will. The scouting department for the minor league system and major league scouting for trades are the most important ways that winners have been built.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

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  12. #90
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    well you are wrong about the best farm system , I believe we are ranked 5th and 7th by the 2 most ackowleged periodicals
    Baseball Prospectus does not rank. If they did, the Twins would be 1, and then a long fall to number 2. BA has not released their official list, but will undoubedly have the Twins in the top 3 (and probably #1). The team is loaded and unless your "periodicals" are the Houston Chronicle or the Chicago Tribune

  13. #91
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    well you are wrong about the best farm system , I believe we are ranked 5th and 7th by the 2 most ackowleged periodicals
    Not sure where you're getting that. Baseball prospectus called the Twins "far and away" the best system in the game this offseason, and John Sickels has stated that if he made such lists, he would have the Twins at the top right now. Those are two of perhaps the three most trusted prospecting sources there are.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  14. #92
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    Baseball Prospectus does not rank. If they did, the Twins would be 1, and then a long fall to number 2. BA has not released their official list, but will undoubedly have the Twins in the top 3 (and probably #1). The team is loaded and unless your "periodicals" are the Houston Chronicle or the Chicago Tribune
    BP's Jason Parks (who basically IS their minor league prospect department) stated this offseason in an Effectively Wild podcast that the Twins were "far and away" the best system in baseball right now in both top end talent and depth.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  15. #93
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    Not sure where you're getting that. Baseball prospectus called the Twins "far and away" the best system in the game this offseason, and John Sickels has stated that if he made such lists, he would have the Twins at the top right now. Those are two of perhaps the three most trusted prospecting sources there are.
    Which is pretty amazing when you adjust expectations for the Twins' farm system after removing Hicks, Gibson, and Arcia from "prospect" status. All three were top 100 prospects last season in most rankings.

    Removing three top 100 prospects and remaining the consensus #1 farm system (maybe #2 on a couple of fringe lists) is quite a feat.

  16. #94
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    I was using last falls reports, me bad, if they have changed in the off season

  17. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    This isn't college football, you can't just go out and poach the other teams top guys. In 2-3 years when Meyer, Sano, Buxton, Arcia, Rosario, Gibson etc are all leading this team to glory, perhaps people will be saying this same thing about the Twins brain trust. Hell, they already were saying it about the Twins when they won the division 6 times in 9 years (no small feat for ANY team)
    We did it in the softest division in the AL, we had 2 MVPs and a CY young winner,along with 1 of the best closers. If we were in the east or the West , would we have won more then 1?

  18. #96
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    We did it in the softest division in the AL, we had 2 MVPs and a CY young winner,along with 1 of the best closers. If we were in the east or the West , would we have won more then 1?
    And how did the Twins acquire those MVP's, Cy Young Winner and one of the best closers?

    Farm development, and.............shrewd trades!!! I am not sure how many they would have won in the east and I am pretty confident they would have won multiple in the west.

    Also for as "soft" as the AL Central was...they still managed to put out some world series teams like the Tigers and White Sox.

  19. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Which is pretty amazing when you adjust expectations for the Twins' farm system after removing Hicks, Gibson, and Arcia from "prospect" status. All three were top 100 prospects last season in most rankings.

    Removing three top 100 prospects and remaining the consensus #1 farm system (maybe #2 on a couple of fringe lists) is quite a feat.
    And how did those 3 work out this year?
    Maybe in 2 or 3 more years we will know if they
    are the real deal ,or not. Do I want them all to be All Stars?

    Hell ya, do I want Nolasco,Hughes and Pelfrey to finish 1-3 in the Cy young voting ?
    Hell ya, Do I want my team to win the WS each year ? Hell Ya ...
    But if you always do ,what you have always done.
    you will always get what you have always gotten....

  20. #98
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    I think I clearly stated that measuring success only by titles makes no sense. But maybe I didn't type that, and I imagined that.
    Lighten up Francis....

  21. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    And how did the Twins acquire those MVP's, Cy Young Winner and one of the best closers?

    Farm development, and.............shrewd trades!!! I am not sure how many they would have won in the east and I am pretty confident they would have won multiple in the west.

    Also for as "soft" as the AL Central was...they still managed to put out some world series teams like the Tigers and White Sox.
    Well I will agree with some of your post...you are pretty confident

  22. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    How many titles have the Rangers and Tigers had the past two decades?

    I love how the Twins make the playoffs 6 times in 9 years....yet many of you folks say "Playoffs mean nothing, its all about the titles" and yet you bring up the Tigers and Rangers (Two teams who haven't won a title anytime recently) as an example as such a much superior org then the Twins.

    It's hard to take those people seriously at times....
    6 times in 9 years

    has this become the greatest achievement in modern day professional sports

    I will cite it myself from time to time, but not as the one essential fact that can be used to trump anything I disagree with. Not claiming that's what you are doing here Dave but its just the same on the other side of the aisle, hard to take a point of view as seriously when it has the old 6 times in 9 in it.

    I am not a Texas Rangers fan, but I would not be hanging my head if I were one. Game 6 in 2011 was unbelievable and sometimes stuff just happens.

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