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Thread: Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Biggio had a farewell tour. I don't remember if Edgar did or not, I assume so. Ripken, Chipper... guys who play long career for one organization usually get one. Its just going to be bigger for Jeter because of that old saying, everything's bigger in NY.

    edit: FWIW I agree Biggio probably deserves a spot in the Hall

  2. #62
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5. He was the best hitting shortstop of his era, an era that included Ripken, Garciaparra, and, yes, Rodriguez. If A-Rod had stayed at short and not juiced, it would be a discussion.

    His defense was overrated. But it is tough to compare him all time defensively because guys like Wagner never had the advanced metrics spotlight that Jeter has lived under. Back then, it was all about scouting eye. Who knows? He certainly was not the best defensive shortstop of his era. Ripken, Visquel, and others were better. Overall, I'd put him just behind Ripken. That's elite company.

    I for one will cheer when he is announced. Guys who play their whole careers for one organization should be celebrated. HOF guys all the more.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  3. These 2 users like cmathewson's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Don't Feed the Greed Guy (02-14-2014), savvyspy (02-14-2014)

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker for me.
    Vlad Guerrero should be a HOF guy. His average 162 games season (he played 15 years):

    .318 average, 34 HR, 113 RBI, 36 2B, 14 SB, .931 OPS. Absolute cannon in RF. He had seven seasons with 10+ outfield assists.

    I think Walker will be forever dinged because of Coors Field. His numbers did jump a ton after he went from MON to COL.

    I think this article will surprise some people.

    http://crusherdestroyer.hubpages.com...-Hall-Of-Famer

  5. #64
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5.
    This is the over-rating I'm talking about. He's not a top 5 player ever. That's just totally unsupported by evidence.

  6. #65
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    I am guessing CMathewson meant top 5 SS. I put him behind Wagner and Banks, a coin flip with Ripken.

    If Tulo and Han-Ram play another 8-10 years they won't have 3k hits but will have better numbers on a per season basis, by far.

  7. #66
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I am guessing CMathewson meant top 5 SS. I put him behind Wagner and Banks, a coin flip with Ripken.

    If Tulo and Han-Ram play another 8-10 years they won't have 3k hits but will have better numbers on a per season basis, by far.
    I hope so, I wouldn't disagree with top 5 SS. Top 5 for all positions. No.

  8. #67
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Top SS of all time IMO:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. A-Rod (roids aside)
    3. George Davis
    4. Cal Ripken
    5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Luke Appling
    8. Derek Jeter
    9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)
    I appreciate your list, except for the fact that this game is played in front of millions of swooning fans. A-Fraud won't make the Hall of Fame, so long as the steroid cloud trumps statistics. For this reason Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken move up the list purely based upon the "what have you done for me lately?" critique.

    There are 51 Yankees in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Derek Jeter is a Yankee. Jeter has more hits than any Yankee to ever put on the pinstripes. Therefore, Jeter will be remembered as one of the greatest Yankees.

    Will he be remembered as one of the greatest shortstops of all time? Probably. Does he deserve to be among the top ten? Yes. The top five? No way.

    BTW, I love the title of this thread. Spirit...Dave's title is about as subtle as Al Franken's love for Rush Limbaugh.

  9. #68
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    Jeter's defense through age 30 was close to average. Other guys like Banks, Yount and eventually Ripken moved off shortstop. All of them would have been liabilities in the field had they played shortstop late into their 30s.

    Jeter is a great player and worthy hall of famer that in the context of shortstops is much closer to Babe Ruth than Jim Rice.

  10. #69
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    This is the over-rating I'm talking about. He's not a top 5 player ever. That's just totally unsupported by evidence.
    I meant SS, not all players.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  11. #70
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I meant SS, not all players.
    That's more reasonable. Though I do think their are some that put him that high.

  12. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

    Top SS of all time IMO:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. A-Rod (roids aside)
    3. George Davis
    4. Cal Ripken
    5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Luke Appling
    8. Derek Jeter
    9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

    It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.
    I have been watching baseball for almost 50 years. I didn't see Appling, Boudreau or Hans. Given numbers and quotes from his contemporaries--concede Honus Wagner best SS of all time. I definitely feel Ozzie is the best I have ever seen so number 2. The next 5 or so (Appling, Boudreau, Larkin, Cal) hard to rank. All are better than Jeter. Then you get another group--Pee Wee, Rizzuto, Banks (would be higher but moved off) also true with Yount that maybe just maybe Jeter fits in with. Top 10 of all-time (arguably). Top 5. No way. A couple of others to think about Dick Groat and Jim Fregosi (who just died this morning)...I am sure I am forgetting somebody.

  13. #72
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    Top 5, Top 10 SS--splitting hairs! The premise was Most Overrated. It seems virtually all posters disagree. Only obliquely mentioned--playing in NY. Yes, the games biggest stage. Make it [t]here--make it anywhere goes the song lyric--and as far as baseball it's true! Failures get magnified also--ask David Winfield. Even worse was what happened to Bobby Murcer. Though probably the very worst was what was done to Maris--but that's NY!

  14. #73
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    I honestly think Jeter has been a bit UNDERRATED in my opinion. His ability to perform and lead a number of championship teams in the spotlight of New York is special. I think of him as basically Kirby Puckett in a MUCH tougher market. The Twins have had MAYBE 2-3 players TOTAL (Puckett, Carew, Killebrew) of Jeter's caliber in their existence.

  15. #74
    Senior Member Triple-A Teflon's Avatar
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    Name anyone Barry Larkin has ever dated.

    PS - If you were Jim Rice would you have prefered to NOT be a Hall-of-Famer as opposed to now being the Hall of Fame's Mendoza Line?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    You know what I meant. IMO there are different levels of HOFamers. Would you say that Jim Rice is in the same class as Babe Ruth?

  16. #75
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Having moved from Minnesota to NY, I can see why it is hard to play here. Not only is the population orders of magnitude greater, but New Yorkers are really focused. On everything. They are news, sports and weather hounds. They follow players everyday. I remember earlier this year, all the buzz was about "what's wrong with Eli?" They thought his career might be over. Every conversation on every train ride I had was about this. They were beside themselves.

    To me, for a guy to handle that microscope and be universally beloved by New Yorkers over nearly two decades takes doing. Jeter and Rivera are like demigods here, because they were the most consistently excellent players this town has seen since Gehrig. Most Yankees have abbreviated careers. Think of Mantle, who was one of the all-time greats at any position. You just wonder what might have been if lifestyle and injuries hadn't shortened his career. So it goes because of the microscope. Not so for Jeter.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  17. #76
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by savvyspy View Post
    I honestly think Jeter has been a bit UNDERRATED in my opinion. His ability to perform and lead a number of championship teams in the spotlight of New York is special. I think of him as basically Kirby Puckett in a MUCH tougher market. The Twins have had MAYBE 2-3 players TOTAL (Puckett, Carew, Killebrew) of Jeter's caliber in their existence.
    IMO you are over-rating him by saying that
    The Twins have definitely had more than 2-3. Killebrew, Carew, Tony O, Mauer and Puckett are all better than Jeter. Johan honestly might be better as well (tough to compare SP and position players though)

    Jeter wasn't even the best play on his own team the majority of those years (WAR his him the best only 3 years)

    Take Mauer for instance, he is significantly better than Jeter offensively (it's not even close) and defensively the only position harder than SS is Catcher, and Joe at the very least played a very good defensive catcher for a decade.

    You wanna talk about under-rated? Joe Mauer. Kid already easily goes down as one of the best 5 Catchers in the games history, even with the position switch, yet nobody mentions him. That is under-rated.
    Last edited by SpiritofVodkaDave; 02-14-2014 at 04:58 PM.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  18. #77
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    It seems virtually all posters disagree.
    Except that isn't the case...
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  19. #78
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    Jeter has 94 career offensive WAR. Second among shortstops.
    Last edited by jorgenswest; 02-14-2014 at 05:27 PM.

  20. #79
    Dude has never won an MVP. Below average defense. Put him on the Royals and he'd be a nobody. Definitely one of the most overrated players of all-time. Bravo, OP!!

  21. #80
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Jeter is one of the best ever. Maybe top 5. He was the best hitting shortstop of his era, an era that included Ripken, Garciaparra, and, yes, Rodriguez. If A-Rod had stayed at short and not juiced, it would be a discussion. .
    Was listening to WFAN out of NYC, Mike Fransesca's show today, and actually he pointed out that Jeter is one of the top Righty hitters post war (career BA based), if you count hitters who played more than 10 seasons.
    -----
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