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Thread: Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Using hall of fame voters to support your argument actually hurts it I believe, if we have learned anything over the years, there are a lot of really ignorant and dumb hall of fame voters (See: Biggio not getting in first ballot, Bagwell not getting in, Edgar Martinez not even sniffing the line, Bonds being shut out, Clemens being shut out etc)

    Biggio and Jeter are actually pretty similar players IMO. Overall I think he is a better hitter, and in his 15 year prime I think he was significantly better due to ballpark/supporting cast. Defensively, I like Biggio more, I think Jeter gets points for being SS (instead of 2B) but Biggio was pretty verstatile as well (playing catcher and CF as well)

    To say that anyone who thinks Biggio is better then Jeter "has never watched them play the game" I think is a bit inflammatory. I think a valid argument could be made (and has been made) for either Jeter or Biggio
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Distinction without a difference to me. The overexposure lead him to be overrated.

    I really don't care for the suggestion that seeing them play leaves no doubt. I saw Jeter and Biggio both play. They were extremely similar players, just one better with the bat and one significantly better with the glove. The stats back that up.

    Their quality of play isn't the difference. Their market and supporting talent were.
    Biggio has very good numbers after the age of 35 raising eyebrows about steroids especially doubles. Jester hadn't inured his ankle we would be talking 3700 lifetime hits instead of the 3300 he has now.

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    It's inflammatory and wrong to insinuate that Biggio did roids, and if you are going to entertain that notion, then perhaps we can entertain the notion that Jeter was on roids/HGH and once he got off he suddenly has injury issues?
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  3. #43
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Which city?! Perhaps it's just because I haven't watched SportsCenter in about five years but I have a hard time believing people are saying Jeter is better than Ruth, Gerhig or Mantle unless you're polling teenage girls.
    I have lived in NYC for about 7 years now, I goto about 15-20 Yankee games a year, trust me, it gets said.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  4. #44
    I was kidding about the mays comment. one of the five best definatately. Being that at the moment only 9 people have more hits that he does, I have a hard time believing his offence is over rated. You can't really compare him to AROD being that he was takeing steriods most of his life. Oh and if your so intersted in his defense, why isn't Vizquel on your list.

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozziedavisfan View Post
    I was kidding about the mays comment. one of the five best definatately. Being that at the moment only 9 people have more hits that he does, I have a hard time believing his offence is over rated. You can't really compare him to AROD being that he was takeing steriods most of his life. Oh and if your so intersted in his defense, why isn't Vizquel on your list.
    I don't think Vizquel is in the Jeter level of SS, however he was a damn fine one and if he got 133 more hits he would be a hall of famer.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    In fairness, Jeter played a more valuable defensive position to get those results since Molitor moved from 2B fairly early in his career.

    You're spot on about the rest. He's basically being given MLB Mt. Rushmore status and it isn't deserved. It's not that he wasn't a great player, it's that where he ranks among the greats has been vastly overstated. Especially when you look at him basically being a clone of Craig Biggio in all the stats, but getting exponentially more love/respect/adoration publicly.
    SS is the most important position. I give you that, but Molitors versatility added value as well. Here are the games by position:

    3B - 791
    2B - 400
    1B - 197
    SS - 57
    LF/RF - 50
    CF - 43

    Pretty insane that he played every position but pitcher and catcher.

  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Also one thought I have on his defense. Jeter's numbers already were anywhere from below average to bad when you look at UZR etc, I am thinking those numbers would be even worse if he wasn't surrounded by slick fielders around him (A-Rod at third during his prime, and Cano at 2nd)

    Yes, SS is the most important position, but he honestly shouldn't have been at SS the second A-Rod got to town.(And maybe even prior)

    Everyone talks about what team player and "gamer" Jeter is, but they always leave out the part where he refused to move from SS for A-Rod, even though it would have certainly been better "for the team"

    I'm not saying he didn't have the right to refuse, or even was wrong, but this idea of him being the "ultimate team player" is wrong IMO.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Willie Mays is one of the best five players to ever play the game, Jeter is not (though half the people in this city will tell you up and down he is the best yankee to play the game and one of the best 10 in baseball history)
    The next person who tells you Jeter was the best Yankee to ever play the game, or even in the top 5 or 10, unless they are the teenage girl, tell them "Uff-da" in reply. I do think that would be overrating him. First ballot HOF though, absolutely. I don't watch the sports shows either so no idea what they are saying.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    The next person who tells you Jeter was the best Yankee to ever play the game, or even in the top 5 or 10, unless they are the teenage girl, tell them "Uff-da" in reply. I do think that would be overrating him. First ballot HOF though, absolutely. I don't watch the sports shows either so no idea what they are saying.
    I agree with first ballot, but at the same time it points out the huge flaw that Biggio and Larkin (extremely similar players) didn't get first ballot.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  10. #50
    A great player, yes; but can we please skip the farewell ceremony at Target Field (and every other MLB Park except Yankee Stadium)?

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  12. #51
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetank View Post
    Biggio has very good numbers after the age of 35 raising eyebrows about steroids especially doubles. Jester hadn't inured his ankle we would be talking 3700 lifetime hits instead of the 3300 he has now.
    What-ifs and maybes seem like a poor basis for an argument.

    The facts are that in terms of production - they were effectively equal players. Jeter was worth less than a half a win more per year than Biggio through his career. One player is lauded as the King of all Shortstops and the other guy is going to go on his third time to get in the Hall.

    Does. Not. Compute.

  13. #52
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    My biggest problem with all this is people like Morosi who call him the "Face of Baseball": http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/y...g-jeter-021214

    Unfortunately, Rodriguez was probably more of the "face of baseball" than Jeter (okay, that makes me want to throw up). Definitely Cal Ripken was.

    And but for the move to the West Coast, I would have definitely said Pujols in the last decade or so. And as Pujols has declined, Miggy.

    Jeter was the "face of baseball" to someone like Morosi because for many sportswriters, the Yankees are the "team of baseball" and Jeter was the "captain".

    But, over the last twenty years, if you had asked me at any given time to name the "face of baseball", I probably would have given a number of different answers depending on the year. I'm not sure that I ever would have named Jeter.

  14. #53
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    [QUOTE=But, over the last twenty years, if you had asked me at any given time to name the "face of baseball", I probably would have given a number of different answers depending on the year. I'm not sure that I ever would have named Jeter.[/QUOTE]

    That is telling, and factually he has never won an MVP award in 19 seasons. He has finished top 5 only three times. Reasons mentioned probably helped him (new york, playing with good players, etc.).

    That is why his HOF candidacy has a lot to do with longevity. He played 19 seasons and the equivalent of another full season in the playoffs. The average is impressive over this span, but the HR, RBI, OBP, SB numbers on a yearly basis put Jeter way behind the games all time greats. All time 40 players, etc. He will be remembered as a top 40 player, probably a top 20 player by some.

  15. #54
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    A couple of things:

    1) I was not trying to start a debate on the relative merits of Jeter and Biggio. I was merely wondering whether the voters responsible for denying Biggio HOF entry due to PED suspicions based on the guilt-by-association rationale would treat Jeter the same way. Just like Biggio, Jeter played with multiple guys who either admitted using or tested positive for PED's. To me, if they're going to be consistent, they should refuse to vote for Jeter as well, but I suspect they won't be.

    2) IMO, there is a difference between 'overrated' and 'overexposed'.

    Overrated = Guys who are not that great, but talked about as though they are great
    Overexposed = Guys who are truly great, but whose greatness is discussed ad nauseum

    Yes, we hear about Jeter's greatness far more often than necessary, far more than we would have had he had the same career in a smaller market. But to me, that doesn't diminish his greatness.

  16. #55
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

    Top SS of all time IMO:
    1. Honus Wagner
    2. A-Rod (roids aside)
    3. George Davis
    4. Cal Ripken
    5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)
    6. Ozzie Smith
    7. Luke Appling
    8. Derek Jeter
    9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

    It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.
    Hold it for a sec. You have him listed as the 8th top rated SS of "all time" and you think that he is overrated?

    Am I missing something here?
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  18. #56
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Hold it for a sec. You have him listed as the 8th top rated SS of "all time" and you think that he is overrated?

    Am I missing something here?
    Have you read the thread? The point is there will be a very large number of the media/fans who will claim he is the best SS of all time.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  19. #57
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    I don't know that Biggio has ever been linked to steriods. He is a guy that should have made it by now though, but I think he was hurt most by the packed ballot. He missed by two votes last year, one weirdo voted only for Jack Morris. Multiple voters said that the 10 vote rule left guys off. So this is really a personality/voting issue than anything else. The numbers are there:

    3,060 hits, 291 HR, .796 OPS, 414 SB, 668 2B. By any measure one of the best hitting 2B of all time.

  20. #58
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    Most overrated in the last 30 years? Sammy Sosa, not Jeter.

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  22. #59
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    Most under-rated? Vlad Guerrero would be my pick.

  23. #60
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Most under-rated? Vlad Guerrero would be my pick.
    Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker for me.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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