02-13-2014, 01:47 PM #41
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02-13-2014, 01:54 PM #42
It's inflammatory and wrong to insinuate that Biggio did roids, and if you are going to entertain that notion, then perhaps we can entertain the notion that Jeter was on roids/HGH and once he got off he suddenly has injury issues?"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald
02-13-2014, 01:55 PM #43
02-13-2014, 01:55 PM #44
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I was kidding about the mays comment. one of the five best definatately. Being that at the moment only 9 people have more hits that he does, I have a hard time believing his offence is over rated. You can't really compare him to AROD being that he was takeing steriods most of his life. Oh and if your so intersted in his defense, why isn't Vizquel on your list.
02-13-2014, 02:05 PM #45
02-13-2014, 02:43 PM #46
02-13-2014, 03:14 PM #47
Also one thought I have on his defense. Jeter's numbers already were anywhere from below average to bad when you look at UZR etc, I am thinking those numbers would be even worse if he wasn't surrounded by slick fielders around him (A-Rod at third during his prime, and Cano at 2nd)
Yes, SS is the most important position, but he honestly shouldn't have been at SS the second A-Rod got to town.(And maybe even prior)
Everyone talks about what team player and "gamer" Jeter is, but they always leave out the part where he refused to move from SS for A-Rod, even though it would have certainly been better "for the team"
I'm not saying he didn't have the right to refuse, or even was wrong, but this idea of him being the "ultimate team player" is wrong IMO."You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald
02-13-2014, 03:14 PM #48
02-13-2014, 03:18 PM #49
02-13-2014, 03:46 PM #50
A great player, yes; but can we please skip the farewell ceremony at Target Field (and every other MLB Park except Yankee Stadium)?
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Hosken Bombo Disco (02-13-2014)
02-13-2014, 04:10 PM #51
The facts are that in terms of production - they were effectively equal players. Jeter was worth less than a half a win more per year than Biggio through his career. One player is lauded as the King of all Shortstops and the other guy is going to go on his third time to get in the Hall.
Does. Not. Compute.
02-13-2014, 04:38 PM #52
My biggest problem with all this is people like Morosi who call him the "Face of Baseball": http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/y...g-jeter-021214
Unfortunately, Rodriguez was probably more of the "face of baseball" than Jeter (okay, that makes me want to throw up). Definitely Cal Ripken was.
And but for the move to the West Coast, I would have definitely said Pujols in the last decade or so. And as Pujols has declined, Miggy.
Jeter was the "face of baseball" to someone like Morosi because for many sportswriters, the Yankees are the "team of baseball" and Jeter was the "captain".
But, over the last twenty years, if you had asked me at any given time to name the "face of baseball", I probably would have given a number of different answers depending on the year. I'm not sure that I ever would have named Jeter.
02-13-2014, 04:49 PM #53
[QUOTE=But, over the last twenty years, if you had asked me at any given time to name the "face of baseball", I probably would have given a number of different answers depending on the year. I'm not sure that I ever would have named Jeter.[/QUOTE]
That is telling, and factually he has never won an MVP award in 19 seasons. He has finished top 5 only three times. Reasons mentioned probably helped him (new york, playing with good players, etc.).
That is why his HOF candidacy has a lot to do with longevity. He played 19 seasons and the equivalent of another full season in the playoffs. The average is impressive over this span, but the HR, RBI, OBP, SB numbers on a yearly basis put Jeter way behind the games all time greats. All time 40 players, etc. He will be remembered as a top 40 player, probably a top 20 player by some.
02-13-2014, 10:41 PM #54
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A couple of things:
1) I was not trying to start a debate on the relative merits of Jeter and Biggio. I was merely wondering whether the voters responsible for denying Biggio HOF entry due to PED suspicions based on the guilt-by-association rationale would treat Jeter the same way. Just like Biggio, Jeter played with multiple guys who either admitted using or tested positive for PED's. To me, if they're going to be consistent, they should refuse to vote for Jeter as well, but I suspect they won't be.
2) IMO, there is a difference between 'overrated' and 'overexposed'.
Overrated = Guys who are not that great, but talked about as though they are great
Overexposed = Guys who are truly great, but whose greatness is discussed ad nauseum
Yes, we hear about Jeter's greatness far more often than necessary, far more than we would have had he had the same career in a smaller market. But to me, that doesn't diminish his greatness.
02-13-2014, 10:52 PM #55
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Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
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02-14-2014, 07:52 AM #56
02-14-2014, 09:57 AM #57
I don't know that Biggio has ever been linked to steriods. He is a guy that should have made it by now though, but I think he was hurt most by the packed ballot. He missed by two votes last year, one weirdo voted only for Jack Morris. Multiple voters said that the 10 vote rule left guys off. So this is really a personality/voting issue than anything else. The numbers are there:
3,060 hits, 291 HR, .796 OPS, 414 SB, 668 2B. By any measure one of the best hitting 2B of all time.
02-14-2014, 10:47 AM #58
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Most overrated in the last 30 years? Sammy Sosa, not Jeter.
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02-14-2014, 11:18 AM #59
Most under-rated? Vlad Guerrero would be my pick.
02-14-2014, 11:42 AM #60