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Thread: Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcarlic View Post
    Dude has never won an MVP. Below average defense. Put him on the Royals and he'd be a nobody. Definitely one of the most overrated players of all-time. Bravo, OP!!
    He would have, except his career years were in 1999, 2006, and 2009 - years where lesser players had better years. No offense to Morneau, but 2006 should have been the year he took home the MVP. No complaints about that, but Derek Jeter, without an MVP, is still a MVP in my mind's eye. Hopefully, he has a trick up his sleeve and goes off offensively this year and then takes a walk down the long hall of going off on a good note.
    I suddenly remembered my Charlemagne. Let my armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    At the risk of sounding condescending, so I apologize in advance, but thinking any inner-circle, first ballot Hall of Famer is overrated is a little silly.

    Jeter has been one of the best, he has the numbers, he has the longevity, he's been a leader on winning teams, he's the total package.
    This!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Vlad Guerrero should be a HOF guy. His average 162 games season (he played 15 years):

    .318 average, 34 HR, 113 RBI, 36 2B, 14 SB, .931 OPS. Absolute cannon in RF. He had seven seasons with 10+ outfield assists.

    I think Walker will be forever dinged because of Coors Field. His numbers did jump a ton after he went from MON to COL.

    I think this article will surprise some people.

    http://crusherdestroyer.hubpages.com...-Hall-Of-Famer
    Vlad wll be first time eligible in a few years. Walker likely needed more counting stats like hits and RBIs in order to make it in the HOF as well which is likely true of CF Jim Edmonds. Biggio hit .260 the last 6 years of his career in order to get 3000 hits which will het him in the HOF.

  4. #84
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    I have never been a fan of Derek Jeter. But I too have watching this game for over 20 years and yes Jeter is overrated.

    1) At no point throughout his career was he ever the best SS in the game. Probably not even top 3. Larkin, Ripken, Rodriguez, Garciaparra, Fernandez, Rollins, Tejida, Reyes, Ramirez... Not even including defensive stallwarts Vizquel and Ozzie. Too many names were consistantly listed above him.

    2) Defensively he was horrendous. Pick your defensive rating, they all say the same thing.

    3) Offensively he was very good. He also had all-stars batting around him for virtually every season in his career. He was seeing better pitches because you waould rather face Jeter than the behemoths behind him.

    4) There is a degree of compiler going on here. Not real effective in the later years, but hanging on. Dave Winfield? Eddie Murray?

    5) Not enough can be said about the media garbage here. Take him out of New York, and he becomes very good, not godlike. George Brett, Robin Yount, Craig Biggio.

    6) Think Jeter is a good teammate? Think again. Ask ARod when he first came over to the Yankees how he was met by Jeter, even though he willingly deferred and switched positions for him. Ask the upper brass who asked Jeter to swtich positions for the better of the team and were rebuffed. Ask every Yankee who has played for the team and wasn't part of the clique how they were treated. Does this happen other places, yes. But we are talking about Jeter.

    7) You can not use WS rings in any argument for any player concerning greatness. Greg Gagne for the Twins has 2 rings, Biggio has none. Does that make Gagne a better player? One players team impact in baseball is so negligable compared to other team sports, it shouldnt even be in the discussion

    I am not going to argue whether or not Jeter is a HOF player. His offensive numbers are strong. His defensive numbers are equally bad (as Jeter played arguably the most important defensive position, these have to be part of the discussion). I will just be thankful that after this year I will be able to read ESPN again without having to to skip over the Jeter garbage.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetank View Post
    Vlad wll be first time eligible in a few years. Walker likely needed more counting stats like hits and RBIs in order to make it in the HOF as well which is likely true of CF Jim Edmonds. Biggio hit .260 the last 6 years of his career in order to get 3000 hits which will het him in the HOF.
    I understand that you're anti-Biggio, but he also had one negative WAR season in his career - his last one. He's said in interviews that he knew that season that it was time to hang it up, whether or not 3,000 came or not because he just couldn't be an asset to his team anymore. Through his age 35 season, he had career numbers of .291/.381/.436 with 2,149 hits. If he retired right then, he is probably in the HOF already. Of course, his injury at 34 that sapped his speed is why Biggio has stated that he changed his approach to drive the ball more rather than spraying line drives because he wasn't happy with his results without his high-end speed that he'd had his whole career.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    I understand that you're anti-Biggio, but he also had one negative WAR season in his career - his last one. He's said in interviews that he knew that season that it was time to hang it up, whether or not 3,000 came or not because he just couldn't be an asset to his team anymore. Through his age 35 season, he had career numbers of .291/.381/.436 with 2,149 hits. If he retired right then, he is probably in the HOF already. Of course, his injury at 34 that sapped his speed is why Biggio has stated that he changed his approach to drive the ball more rather than spraying line drives because he wasn't happy with his results without his high-end speed that he'd had his whole career.
    Biggio is a HOFer. I would vote for him if I had a vote. He caught, played second, and CF. It helped getting 3000 hits. I think Jeter was a better hitter.

    When I read the sabermetrics gurus they don't like Jeter's fielding. I can concede that they may have a point despite his being voted a gold glover a few times.
    Last edited by thetank; 02-15-2014 at 02:51 PM.

  7. #87
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    The discussion of "inner-circle" HOF depends on how many players are in said circle. If we're talking Mays, Mantle, Musial, Hornsby, Wagner, Cobb, Schmidt, Brett, Ruth, W. Johnson, R. Johnson, Koufax, Aaron, T. Williams, then no, Jeter is not on that level.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I have lived in NYC for about 7 years now, I goto about 15-20 Yankee games a year, trust me, it gets said.
    You'd know better than I would then. Still, those tend to be the kinds of folks who don't understand that baseball, or movies and music for that matter, existed more than ten years ago. I don't even bother trying to argue with those narrow focused people, you can't really. They're the same people who would say Kanye West is the greatest musician of all time but couldn't even name one member of the Beatles.

  9. #89
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardkr34 View Post
    The discussion of "inner-circle" HOF depends on how many players are in said circle. If we're talking Mays, Mantle, Musial, Hornsby, Wagner, Cobb, Schmidt, Brett, Ruth, W. Johnson, R. Johnson, Koufax, Aaron, T. Williams, then no, Jeter is not on that level.
    Yeah...that was my issue with Seth's remark too. Jeter is "inner circle" - what does that mean?

    I judge a player being overrated by comparing him to similar peers and how they are perceived. There is no question, in my mind, that compared to his comparable peers (Alomar, Biggio, Damon) that he has been over-rated.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I don't know that Biggio has ever been linked to steriods. He is a guy that should have made it by now though, but I think he was hurt most by the packed ballot. He missed by two votes last year, one weirdo voted only for Jack Morris. Multiple voters said that the 10 vote rule left guys off. So this is really a personality/voting issue than anything else. The numbers are there:

    3,060 hits, 291 HR, .796 OPS, 414 SB, 668 2B. By any measure one of the best hitting 2B of all time.

    ---He's never been linked to steroids by any credible evidence, but certain individual voters have refused to vote for him because they suspect him of using. (Murray Chass and Rick Morrissey are a couple of examples.) Their arguments are more guilt-by-association - i.e. Biggio played with known roiders like Camminitti, so they can't be sure he didn't use.

    So I will be interested to see what these guys do with Jeter. Because if they apply the same logic to Jeter's candidacy that they did to Biggio's, then they won't be voting for Jeter due to steroid suspicion.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    I have never been a fan of Derek Jeter. But I too have watching this game for over 20 years and yes Jeter is overrated.

    6) Think Jeter is a good teammate? Think again. Ask ARod when he first came over to the Yankees how he was met by Jeter, even though he willingly deferred and switched positions for him. Ask the upper brass who asked Jeter to swtich positions for the better of the team and were rebuffed. Ask every Yankee who has played for the team and wasn't part of the clique how they were treated. Does this happen other places, yes. But we are talking about Jeter.
    Thought-provoking; I really can't venture an informed opinion, but I'm in NYC and I've had these semi-conscious thoughts. Thanks for saying it.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Dan Gladden View Post
    I have never been a fan of Derek Jeter. But I too have watching this game for over 20 years and yes Jeter is overrated.

    1) At no point throughout his career was he ever the best SS in the game. Probably not even top 3. Larkin, Ripken, Rodriguez, Garciaparra, Fernandez, Rollins, Tejida, Reyes, Ramirez... Not even including defensive stallwarts Vizquel and Ozzie. Too many names were consistantly listed above him.

    2) Defensively he was horrendous. Pick your defensive rating, they all say the same thing.

    3) Offensively he was very good. He also had all-stars batting around him for virtually every season in his career. He was seeing better pitches because you waould rather face Jeter than the behemoths behind him.

    4) There is a degree of compiler going on here. Not real effective in the later years, but hanging on. Dave Winfield? Eddie Murray?

    5) Not enough can be said about the media garbage here. Take him out of New York, and he becomes very good, not godlike. George Brett, Robin Yount, Craig Biggio.

    6) Think Jeter is a good teammate? Think again. Ask ARod when he first came over to the Yankees how he was met by Jeter, even though he willingly deferred and switched positions for him. Ask the upper brass who asked Jeter to swtich positions for the better of the team and were rebuffed. Ask every Yankee who has played for the team and wasn't part of the clique how they were treated. Does this happen other places, yes. But we are talking about Jeter.

    7) You can not use WS rings in any argument for any player concerning greatness. Greg Gagne for the Twins has 2 rings, Biggio has none. Does that make Gagne a better player? One players team impact in baseball is so negligable compared to other team sports, it shouldnt even be in the discussion

    I am not going to argue whether or not Jeter is a HOF player. His offensive numbers are strong. His defensive numbers are equally bad (as Jeter played arguably the most important defensive position, these have to be part of the discussion). I will just be thankful that after this year I will be able to read ESPN again without having to to skip over the Jeter garbage.
    1) Ripken? Fernandez? Come on, these guys were on the downsides of their careers when Jeter started.

    2) Horrendous may be overstating it, but yeah, he probably did get more Gold Gloves than he deserved

    3) I'm sure he was helped with that to some degree, but plenty of other guys have hit in front of great hitters and not produced the way Jeter did.

    4) When a guy is doing things like getting over 200 hits and finishing in the top 10 in MVP voting, I think it's really difficult to dismiss him as a compiler.

    5) Yes, I agree we wouldn't hear about Jeter ad nauseum if he played in flyover country. However the guys you mentioned were pretty damn good players, much better players than you're making Jeter out to be in your other points.

    6) I don't think anyone posting here knows nearly enough to fairly or adequately judge how good or bad a teammate Jeter is or has been in his career.

    7) Agree on this. Winning a World Series is a team accomplishment, not an individual one. I think the whole rings argument is way overdone, even with quarterbacks in the NFL who have a unique ability to impact a game.

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