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Thread: International signings 2014

  1. #41
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Not sure I understand diehard.....there are 30 spots for 10 teams as FAs....after that, it is a draft. Unlikely they'll get nearly as much money in a draft.....certainly not all of them. The other strategy for a team could be to sign 3 2nd rounders for good money, then draft the top guys left....or a team could go all out and pay 3 guys huge money.....or a team could save their money and just pay the guy they draft.

    Thirty players, regardless of level (or 20 if you use my limit thing....) would be signed with virtual certainty. Also, this way, the PLAYERS get to choose what they do. They can sign, or they can go into the draft. Right now, they have no real choice other than to sit out 1-2 years.
    I misunderstood you... makes more sense now.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    The problem I see is that most players whose agents are worth anything will tell them to wait until all the teams can be in to maximize their value.

    Like it or not, this was an attempt to do this without an international draft. However, as long as the big maket teams have a way of dumping their excess reserves back into the system, they will do it. I don't blame them, b/c I'd do it to, but from a best interests of baseball standpoint, there has to be a way of maintaning competitive balance, and I see this as nothing more than a way to eventually get the international draft.
    This is an interesting idea. I can't see that the big boys would go for 3. That would potentially mean someone is picking their first guy at 60. Maybe you lower it to 2 and if a team signs two, their first pick in the draft portion is skipped but they would get a chance to grab another guy after the first round of the draft portion.

    I like the idea you have proposed.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I honestly think that most teams want an international draft. The easiest way for that to happen is for these rules to get broken enough that the sytem fails. They tweak the rules to fix a broken system and then at the next CBA, they will be rightfully upset when teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and RedSox do what they did last year and will do this year.

    Oh, and we'll see Cubans, Japanese, and Koreans subject to it too.

    I don't like it for the players, but I do think that long term it's best for baseball.
    Maybe 2 international drafts 1 for 21 and under and 1 for those 22 and older,then a exzemption to 3 years of team controll before free agency?arbritration after the first year ,and a free agent after the 3rd year?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    nick, I didn't want to hijack the thread. But quickly, you agreed to the stadium through the political process. No one promised you anything that hasn't been delivered. It's your own mirage that your staring at about how much spending you are entitled to and on what timetable. You are not entitled to a thing, nick. Moreover, isn't it convenient to ignore the financial and intrinsic benefits we're enjoying because of Target Field.

    So, here's my analogy of why it's a bit hypocritical for us to blast the Twins on this and pretend we're being cheated. If I was one of those who bought a cheap chunk of pasture out north of Rogers and built my new house on it, the rest of you helped me make this dream work. You bought me roads, and a sewer, and the LRT. So, thanks. But if you think, for one minute, that you have the right to tell me what to do with my house, you're mistaken. It's not yours.

    Public subsidies are part of our deal. If you work for Best Buy, or Allina, or any other company that has built facilities, the taxpayers have a few nickels invested in your cubicle. So we expect you to work real hard to make your company profitable so we get paid back in tax revenues generated from your loyal efforts. That's how the system works.
    And if the shoe was on the other foot? If the Pohlads had approached Hennipen county and said ,look we will build a stadium , and we want you to raise taxes , paying us 35 million a year for 10 years...and in year 1 (2010) it was paid, but in the next 4 years Hennipen county didnt pay ,do you think the Twins LLC would be angry? Sue? threaten to move?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Triple-A maxisagod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Just a note, the Twins had an agreement with Lewin Diaz well in advance of last July 2. Obviously not this early, but the Twins, like all other teams bend the rules. Teams, and players, also have been known to break verbal agreements. And teams have also made much earlier - and sometimes shadier - deals with trainers in the past. The issue isn't the Yankees, but the system. And I think we'll see a change coming in the future.

    One other thing to consider: the Yankees are significantly overpaying for guys this year. I *speculate* that in return for that, the trainers that benefited this year will scratch the Yankees back in the future, whether that means bargain deals or hiding prospects remains to be seen.
    I forget who did the interview, if it was you Jeremy, Seth, or Jesse Lund over at Twinkie Town, but the Twins area scout for East Asia (China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea) was saying once agents and handlers notices your team is starting to spend money in the region they start bring the talented guys to your team's scout attention, doing the hard work of scouting for them. The Benefits for The Yankees this year is ever high end players handler will be checking in with the Yankees before doing written agreements. So a guy like Lara might drive his price up with the Brewers after talking to the Yankees or just go back on the verbal 'agreement' like you mentioned. Also next year every player will contact the Cubs and Rangers with their prized players and they'll contact the Yankees again in 2016 if a draft isn't in place.
    Last edited by maxisagod; 02-14-2014 at 02:13 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Not all problems are resolved through lawsuits, jokin. The league will certainly address the problem.
    So you concur. As Mike so eloquently stated, no rules are presently being "broken" to the point that someone has filed a legal suit. And when the league "addresses the problem", teams from both sides of the "spirit of the law" divide will have a hand in coming up with a new structure and a set of rules, that once again will have teams employing their own strategies based upon that new structure and rules.

    Ethics will play no part in their new strategies.

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  8. #47
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    I think that I would avoid talking too much about about ethics in any of this. We have very wealthy organizations throwing what is chump change for them, (but is incredible amounts of money for these kids that might set up their families as for at least a generation) at 16 year kids with the intention of tieing them up for at the next ten years IF they prove to be good. All of the advantages are for the organizations.

    I would prefer that the various teams would follow the "rules" that they all agreed to and negotiated on. Clearly, that won't happen. The wealthier organizations will look for loopholes in the rules that will give them advantages over their competitors. I expect that when we are talking about 16 year kids here, the ones that look much, much better at 16, might not look so much better at 18 or 21. Lets face it, Arcia, Polanco, and several pitchers who are looking very promising right now for the Twins, were signed to relatively modest contracts. It is almost impossible to make any predictions on how good signings of 16 year kids are going to look in 3/5/10 years from now.

    At this point, I am not going to worry very much if various teams bend the rules to sign 16 year old kids to huge contracts. The chances are much better that those signings will prove to be poor investments for those teams than they will come away with incredible talents.

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  10. #48
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    You make sound points, Jim. I guess I still feel strongly that, when we witness cheating in our society, we should feel some measure of outrage about it. The message we're sending to our younger fans, in this instance, is that agreements don't have to be kept and cheating has its benefits, so don't be a chump, get in there and get yours. The international market has been notoriously filled with shady dealings, and MLB has been complicit. I don't know what the solution is, but would appreciate seeing much of the unsavoriness eliminated from the process. I won't hold my breath though.

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    So you concur. As Mike so eloquently stated, no rules are presently being "broken" to the point that someone has filed a legal suit. And when the league "addresses the problem", teams from both sides of the "spirit of the law" divide will have a hand in coming up with a new structure and a set of rules, that once again will have teams employing their own strategies based upon that new structure and rules.

    Ethics will play no part in their new strategies.
    You lost track of your own argument, my friend.

    When I made the simple and true statement that a handful of teams have (Cubs) or would be (Yanks) cheating the system, you disagreed. You said that if this was true, there would be a slew of lawsuits. I have no clue where you wandered off to after that, but there were some terrific contributions from others in the thread, and the overwhelming consensus is that the league, in the face of this cheating, will certainly address the problem. So the majority concurs.

  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    nick, I didn't want to hijack the thread. But quickly, you agreed to the stadium through the political process. No one promised you anything that hasn't been delivered. It's your own mirage that your staring at about how much spending you are entitled to and on what timetable. You are not entitled to a thing, nick. Moreover, isn't it convenient to ignore the financial and intrinsic benefits we're enjoying because of Target Field.

    So, here's my analogy of why it's a bit hypocritical for us to blast the Twins on this and pretend we're being cheated. If I was one of those who bought a cheap chunk of pasture out north of Rogers and built my new house on it, the rest of you helped me make this dream work. You bought me roads, and a sewer, and the LRT. So, thanks. But if you think, for one minute, that you have the right to tell me what to do with my house, you're mistaken. It's not yours.

    Public subsidies are part of our deal. If you work for Best Buy, or Allina, or any other company that has built facilities, the taxpayers have a few nickels invested in your cubicle. So we expect you to work real hard to make your company profitable so we get paid back in tax revenues generated from your loyal efforts. That's how the system works.
    I never argued against the stadium, this discussion is getting twisted but not by me. I argued against your claim that going over the International spending limit was unethical. I didn't blast the Twins for being hypocritical, it wasn't THEM who claimed it was unethical to spend more than the International slotting.

    Again, you haven't clarified why the analogy is bogus. I'm more than happy the stadium was built and I didn't argue it shouldn't have been. I said with the new stadium an implied payroll was expected to be sustained. In fact it was promised. Things changed, we'll get over it. But how is that any less unethical than going over an International signing slot?

    Bottom line is it isn't. All teams have the prerogative to go over the bonus allotment, just as all teams have the prerogative to set their payroll.

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  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I never argued against the stadium, this discussion is getting twisted but not by me. I argued against your claim that going over the International spending limit was unethical. I didn't blast the Twins for being hypocritical, it wasn't THEM who claimed it was unethical to spend more than the International slotting.

    Again, you haven't clarified why the analogy is bogus. I'm more than happy the stadium was built and I didn't argue it shouldn't have been. I said with the new stadium an implied payroll was expected to be sustained. In fact it was promised. Things changed, we'll get over it. But how is that any less unethical than going over an International signing slot?

    Bottom line is it isn't. All teams have the prerogative to go over the bonus allotment, just as all teams have the prerogative to set their payroll.
    A critical difference, nick, is that the teams formally agreed to the international signing rules.

    You were not promised, by the Twins or anyone else, that they would spend "X" amount on payroll in "Y" timeframe. More importantly, you are not entitled to be a party to some agreement. Most importantly, there has been no unethical conduct that you can legitimately cite, unlike with the Cubs, who breached a formal agreement that they participated in formulating. Yes, Jim Pohlad said they'd spend more on payroll. Yes, Jim Pohlad and others have said they have a guideline (not a promise or agreement) to spend an average of about 52% of revenue. Apparently, many of you believe, because this hasn't happened (yet), that you have been betrayed. There is no agreement, nick. There is only an expectation, a false one, that the Twins should spend 52% on payroll, each and every year I guess, and some of you have convinced youeselves that not doing so is unethical, or some sort of violation against you.

    So, your analogy is bogus, nick. Bottom line? The Cubs were unethical. They have the prerogative to be unethical. The Twins, who by the way HAVE at least increased their spending in fits and starts, have not been unethical.

    If we think the Twins are not spending enough, we can vote with our pocketbook and whine about it on TD, but those are our only choices. And we are not entiltled to anything more.

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  16. #52
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    You lost track of your own argument, my friend.

    When I made the simple and true statement that a handful of teams have (Cubs) or would be (Yanks) cheating the system, you disagreed. You said that if this was true, there would be a slew of lawsuits. I have no clue where you wandered off to after that, but there were some terrific contributions from others in the thread, and the overwhelming consensus is that the league, in the face of this cheating, will certainly address the problem. So the majority concurs.
    That's just it, it isn't cheating. The rules don't say you can't over spend. They impose very weak penalties on you the next year if you do. All contracts are approved by the MLB front office, so if it was cheating, Selig would step in. It's not, because it's within the rules.

    I can certainly agree about the spirit of the rules, and I doubt anyone would complain if a team spent a 100k more to get that one last guy, but the Cubs and Rangers destroyed their allotments last year and the Yanks and Sox appear to be doing it this season. The penalties that were agreed on were not strict enough to do it. Had these teams been forced to surrender their first rounder in the US draft, I don't think this would have happened unless they really really really liked someone.

    As I said prior, I'm pretty sure this was by design. Most teams want an international draft, and to get around it, they need to show how the system is broken. Putting a good system together won't get them that.

    We will see come July what actually happens...

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  18. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    A critical difference, nick, is that the teams formally agreed to the international signing rules.

    You were not promised, by the Twins or anyone else, that they would spend "X" amount on payroll in "Y" timeframe. More importantly, you are not entitled to be a party to some agreement. Most importantly, there has been no unethical conduct that you can legitimately cite, unlike with the Cubs, who breached a formal agreement that they participated in formulating. Yes, Jim Pohlad said they'd spend more on payroll. Yes, Jim Pohlad and others have said they have a guideline (not a promise or agreement) to spend an average of about 52% of revenue. Apparently, many of you believe, because this hasn't happened (yet), that you have been betrayed. There is no agreement, nick. There is only an expectation, a false one, that the Twins should spend 52% on payroll, each and every year I guess, and some of you have convinced youeselves that not doing so is unethical, or some sort of violation against you.

    So, your analogy is bogus, nick. Bottom line? The Cubs were unethical. They have the prerogative to be unethical. The Twins, who by the way HAVE at least increased their spending in fits and starts, have not been unethical.

    If we think the Twins are not spending enough, we can vote with our pocketbook and whine about it on TD, but those are our only choices. And we are not entiltled to anything more.
    Teams did agree to to the international signing rules, BIRD, and no rules are being broken. This has been pointed out now many times over. Teams have have decided to take the financial hit and sacrifice their ability to sign players the following year and it appears more will do so again next year. Any team can do this, including the Twins. Unless the rules get changed, this is perfectly legal, ethical and every team has the ability to do it.

    You are the one who keeps bringing up the payroll, I simply used it as another example of what many would consider questionable ethics. So enough of trying to misdirect the discussion. AGAIN I'm not arguing that the Twins need to stick to the statement that they'd spend 52% of revenue. AGAIN I am arguing against your claim that breaking a non-existent rule that you (and many of us) wish were in place is unethical. It isn't.

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  20. #54
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    I agree with you, diehard, that they didn't break the rules. I simply am holding them to a modest standard of ethics. I believe the prevalent view among people who study and teach ethics would be that the Cubs and Rangers intentionally bycheated and caused harm to other parties to the same agreement by circumventing the spirit and intent of the agreement.

  21. #55
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    I think we covered the topic, nick. You brought up spending, I didn't, and you pressed me twice to clarify why I beleive, unlike you, that your analogy doesn't fit. We don't agree, and I fully understand your point of view. Thanks for being civil, I appreciate and respect your opinions.

  22. #56
    Senior Member Triple-A maxisagod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    ....
    As I said prior, I'm pretty sure this was by design. Most teams want an international draft, and to get around it, they need to show how the system is broken. Putting a good system together won't get them that.
    ....
    First I'm avoiding the whole 'are the Twins spending what they should' dialog because I think that conversation has been played out.

    Diehardtwinsfan comments make me think about one comment and one question.

    The Comment: I don't think this system was created to fail, I think it's failing because there were too many compromises in the negotiations for a new system. The spending limits was set up to accomplish two things. 1, To keep spending down on amateur players and 2) to divide the young talent up more equally; essentially to change it from a 'who spends the most' system to a 'who scouts the best' system. When a low budget team like the Rays takes on the penalties, some could argue that team is just taking a calculated risk on talent they like this year vs the talent that is available next year. On the other hand, When The highest revenue team plans to spend more money than they ever have to grab the most high end talent they can; Then the new system failed to accomplish it's goals.

    The Question: If only the owners and the players union are in the negotiations, what does the union have against an international draft of players, they don't, and in most cases will never, represent?

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