Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 48 of 65 FirstFirst ... 38464748495058 ... LastLast
Results 941 to 960 of 1287

Thread: 2014 MLB Draft Thread

  1. #941
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    644
    Like
    5
    Liked 29 Times in 14 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Why is everyone here stuck on pitchers? If the draft goes like most people say it will, the best three pitchers will be gone. So they should have Gordon or Jackson in front of them

    Take the best position player - Gordon, Jackson or maybe even Turner and be done with it. No need to stretch for a pitcher who will "move quick" because there are lots of those types in the system already.
    A quality bat would be better here.

  2. #942
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that running Brad Radke out for game 1 of a playoff series is not on par with what the Tigers, Cardinals, Rays, Yankees, A's, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers and every other playoff regular will put on the mound.

    My opinion is that even the Twins can afford pitchers like Radke in free agency. They did after all sign him to a reasonable extension during the Metrodome years. They're not getting an ace in free agency though, so you better aim for them high in the draft.

    Maybe somehow Nola can miss some bats at the MLB level but the odds are against it with a 91 MPH fastball and no exceptional breaking pitch.

  3. This user likes nicksaviking's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Willihammer (05-20-2014)

  4. #943
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,124
    Like
    100
    Liked 271 Times in 195 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that running Brad Radke out for game 1 of a playoff series is not on par with what the Tigers, Cardinals, Rays, Yankees, A's, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers and every other playoff regular will put on the mound.

    My opinion is that even the Twins can afford pitchers like Radke in free agency. They did after all sign him to a reasonable extension during the Metrodome years. They're not getting an ace in free agency though, so you better aim for them high in the draft.

    Maybe somehow Nola can miss some bats at the MLB level but the odds are against it with a 91 MPH fastball and no exceptional breaking pitch.
    My thoughts exactly. This is our shot at upside, that is why I like Freeland or Touki (if the big 3 are gone). If it is a position player, I prefer Jackson with the same logic. If he is a 35 HR a year guy he is likely off limits to us in free agency as well.

  5. #944
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,124
    Like
    100
    Liked 271 Times in 195 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by cmb0252 View Post
    Personally, I'm note a huge fan of using college stats to judge prospects. While you like to see players dominate piers it definitely isn't an end all be all. Wimmers had a 11 k/9 in college but no one ever expected him to strike out that many guys in the bigs. No, Wimmers isn't the prospect Nola is. Nola has significantly better overall stuff. Nola does have some flaws though.

    He throws from a low-three quarters arm slot which you rarely see in the bigs. He does repeat his delivery well though.He is also undersized at 6'1 which is or isn't a big deal depending on who you talk to. Most importantly to me is he doesn't have a true 70 grade pitch. I just see a solid number three pitcher when I look at Nola.
    That is the issue, Nola doesn't have a plus pitch or a swing and miss pitch. These guys don't project as an ace or #2, most say he is a 3 or 4.

  6. #945
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    140
    Like
    348
    Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Plus Gordon is a shortstop, the key IF position, the most difficult position for any major league team to fill. Draft Gordon if the "big 3" are gone.

  7. #946
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,676
    Like
    303
    Liked 218 Times in 138 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Radke - 4.22 career ERA
    Beckett - 3.91 career ERA

    I don't understand how Radke was clearly the better pitcher with better results. More consistent - yes but not better. In addition when Beckett was on he was an ace.
    That's why using era only is a bad idea. ERA+, which adjusts for ballparks but not leagues, has Radke ahead. Radke also had as many 5 WAR seasons as Beckett and John Lackey combined.

  8. #947
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,676
    Like
    303
    Liked 218 Times in 138 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that running Brad Radke out for game 1 of a playoff series is not on par with what the Tigers, Cardinals, Rays, Yankees, A's, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers and every other playoff regular will put on the mound.

    My opinion is that even the Twins can afford pitchers like Radke in free agency. They did after all sign him to a reasonable extension during the Metrodome years. They're not getting an ace in free agency though, so you better aim for them high in the draft.

    Maybe somehow Nola can miss some bats at the MLB level but the odds are against it with a 91 MPH fastball and no exceptional breaking pitch.
    As pointed out above, Radke did just fine in the playoffs - the offense less so. And pitchers like Radke rarely get to free agency and, when they do, they don't sign for Kevin Correia money.

  9. #948
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    215
    Like
    11
    Liked 33 Times in 19 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that running Brad Radke out for game 1 of a playoff series is not on par with what the Tigers, Cardinals, Rays, Yankees, A's, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers and every other playoff regular will put on the mound.

    My opinion is that even the Twins can afford pitchers like Radke in free agency. They did after all sign him to a reasonable extension during the Metrodome years. They're not getting an ace in free agency though, so you better aim for them high in the draft.

    Maybe somehow Nola can miss some bats at the MLB level but the odds are against it with a 91 MPH fastball and no exceptional breaking pitch.
    I disagree with this statement, and I think the current state of the league backs me up. Looking at the pitching staffs for those 8 teams (roughly 40 starters), only 3 pitchers are top-10 picks still on the team that drafted them: Verlander, Price, and Kershaw. Just as many aces were acquired via savvy trades: Scherzer, Sanchez, Wainwright.

    There a many ways to create an excellent and deep pitching staff. The Rays have their anchor in Price, but then they filled the rest of their rotation by either developing HS pitchers drafted in the 4th round or later, or by acquiring young, high-end pitcher in trades. The Cardinals used a mixture of trades (Wainwright), HS picks (Miller) and college arms (Wacha, Lynn, Kelly). The A's almost exclusively draft college arms, and supplement with smart free agent signings and good trades. The Tigers have Verlander and Porcello whom they developed in house, but then made two very smart trades to acquire Scherzer and Sanchez. The Braves mostly draft college pitchers, plus some really good international and free agent signings.

    The Rays have had 20 1st round picks since the new management took over in 2006. They have drafted only 6 pitchers, of which 2 were high school pitchers. The Cardinals have had 17 picks in the same time frame (highest #13). They have drafted 10 pitchers, but only 3 from high school.

    The Twins do not need to gamble on the highest-upside pitcher every year in order to build a competitive staff. They need to continue to acquire high-end talent via trades whenever a good opportunity presents itself, and they need to get better at developing what talent they do have in the system.

  10. #949
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,124
    Like
    100
    Liked 271 Times in 195 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by markos View Post
    I disagree with this statement, and I think the current state of the league backs me up. Looking at the pitching staffs for those 8 teams (roughly 40 starters), only 3 pitchers are top-10 picks still on the team that drafted them: Verlander, Price, and Kershaw. Just as many aces were acquired via savvy trades: Scherzer, Sanchez, Wainwright.

    There a many ways to create an excellent and deep pitching staff. The Rays have their anchor in Price, but then they filled the rest of their rotation by either developing HS pitchers drafted in the 4th round or later, or by acquiring young, high-end pitcher in trades. The Cardinals used a mixture of trades (Wainwright), HS picks (Miller) and college arms (Wacha, Lynn, Kelly). The A's almost exclusively draft college arms, and supplement with smart free agent signings and good trades. The Tigers have Verlander and Porcello whom they developed in house, but then made two very smart trades to acquire Scherzer and Sanchez. The Braves mostly draft college pitchers, plus some really good international and free agent signings.

    The Rays have had 20 1st round picks since the new management took over in 2006. They have drafted only 6 pitchers, of which 2 were high school pitchers. The Cardinals have had 17 picks in the same time frame (highest #13). They have drafted 10 pitchers, but only 3 from high school.

    The Twins do not need to gamble on the highest-upside pitcher every year in order to build a competitive staff. They need to continue to acquire high-end talent via trades whenever a good opportunity presents itself, and they need to get better at developing what talent they do have in the system.
    Exceptions apply, but you have the draft, trades, international signings, and free agency. High profile pitchers are off limits to the Twins in both free agency and international signings. Certainly the Yankees have been helped by CC (FA) and Tanaka (international). The Tigers by overslot drafts (Verlander and Porcello) and free agency (Anibal), and so on. The Rangers by Darvish. The Rays best pitcher was the best upside in that draft. The Dodgers took Greinke and certainly Kershaw was an upside pick in the draft.

    I think that was the point of the post and one that I agree with.
    Last edited by tobi0040; 05-20-2014 at 11:24 AM.

  11. #950
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,124
    Like
    100
    Liked 271 Times in 195 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    I think 90% of this discussion has come down to a debate about floor and ceiling of each player considered at #5, and the risks and likelihood associated with them meeting the ceiling.

    Maybe a relevant discussion would be to get a list of players considered at #5 and a rough framework of how that player projects. For the sake of this, I don't want to get into the business of predicting injuries. It is certainly an implied risk with pitchers more than position players.

    Here is a quick overview of Aiken, based on about 10 minutes of research:

    Best asset - 6'4 lefty. His stuff right now is 65 FB, 60 curve, 60 change, 60 control.

    Ceiling - Front line starter, tall lefty with 2-3 plus pitches and a mid 90's fastball
    Floor - If the scout ratings above are correct (where he is right now), #2 starter, very good #3 starter with no improvement to these.
    Key Risk - He is a high school pitcher

    List of players considered:

    Aiken, Rodon, Freeland, Jackson, Gordon, Touki, Nola, and Kolek. I don't have time to look at them all
    Last edited by tobi0040; 05-20-2014 at 11:23 AM.

  12. #951
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    As pointed out above, Radke did just fine in the playoffs - the offense less so. And pitchers like Radke rarely get to free agency and, when they do, they don't sign for Kevin Correia money.
    If the Twins starters were better than "just fine" they wouldn't have to score a ton of runs. Runs are hard to come by when you're facing the other team's ace in October. Something the Twins probably should strive to emulate.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone here thinks the Twins can compete in the postseason if they are only aiming for a "just fine" rotation.

  13. #952
    Senior Member All-Star 70charger's Avatar
    Posts
    1,114
    Like
    137
    Liked 198 Times in 97 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    If the Twins starters were better than "just fine" they wouldn't have to score a ton of runs. Runs are hard to come by when you're facing the other team's ace in October. Something the Twins probably should strive to emulate.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone here thinks the Twins can compete in the postseason if they are only aiming for a "just fine" rotation.
    Read what you quoted. He never said we should aim for "just fine" pitchers or a "just fine" rotation. He said that when Radke was asked to pitch in the playoffs he did just fine, and remember that any pitcher no matter how incredible can lose any single game.

    As a pitcher he was way, way better than just fine. A staff of five Radkes would be way, way better than just fine.

  14. #953
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,676
    Like
    303
    Liked 218 Times in 138 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    If the Twins starters were better than "just fine" they wouldn't have to score a ton of runs. Runs are hard to come by when you're facing the other team's ace in October. Something the Twins probably should strive to emulate.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone here thinks the Twins can compete in the postseason if they are only aiming for a "just fine" rotation.
    For crying out loud .... Radke pitched better than Johan Santana in the playoffs. We didn't lose because of him.

    The entire point of this was that we need good pitchers of any type - if it's a Santana clone, great, if it's a Radke clone, great.

  15. #954
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Read what you quoted. He never said we should aim for "just fine" pitchers or a "just fine" rotation. He said that when Radke was asked to pitch in the playoffs he did just fine, and remember that any pitcher no matter how incredible can lose any single game.

    As a pitcher he was way, way better than just fine. A staff of five Radkes would be way, way better than just fine.
    I love Brad Radke, so I hate that he was brought up as an example. Let's change the example to Bronson Arroyo to end any kind of negative analysis of why this type of pitcher shouldn't be anchoring a playoff staff. A rotation of Bronson Arroyo's would not win a championship.

    If Bronson Arroyo was on the Tigers, even in his prime, he would be lucky to be 4th in the rotation. I'm having a really hard time understanding how this is even debatable.

  16. #955
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    For crying out loud .... Radke pitched better than Johan Santana in the playoffs. We didn't lose because of him.

    The entire point of this was that we need good pitchers of any type - if it's a Santana clone, great, if it's a Radke clone, great.
    I think your sentimentality toward Radke is getting in the way of the obvious. Those two pitchers at their peak were not on the same level. There were multiple levels between them.

  17. #956
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,676
    Like
    303
    Liked 218 Times in 138 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I think your sentimentality toward Radke is getting in the way of the obvious. Those two pitchers at their peak were not on the same level. There were multiple levels between them.
    Yes, Santana was a better pitcher than Radke. Shocking. And Radke was a much better pitcher than Bronson Arroyo - and Josh Beckett and many, many other pitchers who had success in the post season.

  18. #957
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    151
    Like
    0
    Liked 9 Times in 5 Posts
    Any chance you guys could move this radke back-and-forth to its own thread if you wish to continue not changing each others' mind? I realize it started as draft related but it is no longer and it isn't really contributing positively to the discussion about the draft.

  19. #958
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitz View Post
    Any chance you guys could move this radke back-and-forth to its own thread if you wish to continue not changing each others' mind? I realize it started as draft related but it is no longer and it isn't really contributing positively to the discussion about the draft.
    Good call. If you hadn't brought it up, I'm not sure I could have remembered which thread this was!

  20. This user likes nicksaviking's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    tarheeltwinsfan (05-22-2014)

  21. #959
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,756
    Like
    1
    Liked 103 Times in 73 Posts
    Two new draft articles from mlb.com are up. The first one is Mayo's take on how strong the college pitching group is after Hoffman/Fedde went down.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb

    Yesterday Mayo posted an article where he had Toussaint and the third best prep arm behind Aiken/Kolek. Today Callis makes the case it should be Holmes. Here is his take:

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb

  22. #960
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,599
    Like
    64
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by cmb0252 View Post
    Two new draft articles from mlb.com are up. The first one is Mayo's take on how strong the college pitching group is after Hoffman/Fedde went down.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb

    Yesterday Mayo posted an article where he had Toussaint and the third best prep arm behind Aiken/Kolek. Today Callis makes the case it should be Holmes. Here is his take:

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/...&vkey=news_mlb
    Yup, I like Holmes. If the top three pitchers are off the board, I'd be good with him. I like Toussaint also, but Holmes seems to be underrated.

Page 48 of 65 FirstFirst ... 38464748495058 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.