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Thread: Mackey: Mentioning Mauer with Puckett... Sacrilege?

  1. #21
    Mauer's best 5 season are all above 140 in OPS+. Puckett had 2.

    My vote is Killibrew, Carew, Mauer, Puckett and that wouldnt change if Mauer retired tomorrow.

    Be nice if Mauer had the word series heroics but that isnt really his fault.

    Mauer is the Craig Biggio of the Twins....no respect...no respect..

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    It's funny because they are almost complete opposites in every way.

    Puckett was engaging, affable, and vocal. Mauer is bland, subdued, and introverted.

    Puckett was not very sabermetric-friendly due to his lack of walks. Mauer's best attribute is his OBP.

    Puckett is regarded as one of the most clutch players of all-time. Mauer doesn't have a signature moment.

    Puckett has two world championships. Mauer has zero postseason wins.

  4. #23
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Seems like there's about 37 different questions being asked and answered here: who is the better player? Who is the most valuable player? Who was best leader? who is the most skilled player? and so on.

    In terms of pure physical gifts, Puckett or Killebrew can't possibly be considered among the top 10 Twins, but Mauer is definitely in the top 3.

    In terms of the value/leadership he has provided to his team in making a run at a championship or whatever, Puckett and Killer are probably 1 and 2, and Mauer might not make my top 10 list. Not knocking him, but team wise, aside from 2006, he just hasn't been a part of anything special.

    There you go - another guys opinion
    Wow. That is insane. Yeah, he isn't a rah rah guy. But nobody works harder. Nobody leads by example better, both on and off the field. As the catcher, he was the quarterback on the field for several playoff teams. He has led teams with vastly different pitching staffs to the playoffs, where they ran into some pretty good Yankee teams. Does that mean he was a sub-par leader? C-mon!

    Off the field, he brought Morneau under his wing (as a room mate) and got him cleaned up. He had to kick him out when Morney brought his future wife home one night. Joe married his high-school best friend (couldn't even call her a sweetheart because that would be scandalous!). And they conceived Twins on their honeymoon. Since then, he's been a model husband and father. He doesn't get awards for his charitable work because it is secret. He doesn't believe in self promotion of any kind, least of all on his charitable work.

    Yeah, Puck put his team on his back a couple of times. And he was a rah rah guy on the field. But, as Reusse has written, he was no saint. Life of the party? Sure. Binge drinking? You betcha. He and Gladden were legendary. Affairs? He was a hound. Had a 15-year affair with his limo driver. All this came out at the divorce proceedings, which documented his regular liaisons on the road. And then their was the assault. But let's not drag his character through the mud because he was a great leader on the field.

    Killer was a saint. Puck put on the saint persona, which was a lie.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  5. #24
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    One opinion: Mauer might be a better baseball player than Puckett, but I'd rather pay to watch Puckett play baseball than Mauer.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  6. #25
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    One opinion: Mauer might be a better baseball player than Puckett, but I'd rather pay to watch Puckett play baseball than Mauer.
    Baseball was more fun when hackers like Puck were celebrated. But my sensibilities have changed. I used to hate watching Carew hit. Strike, strike, foul, ball, foul, ball, foul, foul, foul, ball, foul, looping single to left. By comparison, Puck took a hack at anything close. Kind of like a right-handed Tony O. Mauer is much more in the Carew line.

    Thing is, guys who hit like Carew are proven to help their team win more than guys who hit like Puckett. At least that's what these fancy math guys are saying. So, I've developed an appreciation for watching Mauer hit. And I can say it is much more enjoyable than watching Puck hack at an outside slider on the first pitch and roll over to short.

    Also, I like watching catchers. Center field is easier to grasp. Catching is more nuanced. All things considered, I prefer watching Mauer.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  8. #26
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    So it is Mauer's fault the rest of the team wasn't as good as the team's Puckett was on? I have never understood that at all, in terms of "value".

    If you could start a team, right now, and you had to choose between Mauer and Puckett, who would you choose (assuming you get their career as an individual)? The clear answer is Mauer, imo. That's how you assess value, not how the rest of the team was.
    Lighten up Francis....

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  10. #27
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Wow. That is insane. Yeah, he isn't a rah rah guy. But nobody works harder. Nobody leads by example better, both on and off the field. As the catcher, he was the quarterback on the field for several playoff teams. He has led teams with vastly different pitching staffs to the playoffs, where they ran into some pretty good Yankee teams. Does that mean he was a sub-par leader? C-mon!

    Off the field, he brought Morneau under his wing (as a room mate) and got him cleaned up. He had to kick him out when Morney brought his future wife home one night. Joe married his high-school best friend (couldn't even call her a sweetheart because that would be scandalous!). And they conceived Twins on their honeymoon. Since then, he's been a model husband and father. He doesn't get awards for his charitable work because it is secret. He doesn't believe in self promotion of any kind, least of all on his charitable work.

    Yeah, Puck put his team on his back a couple of times. And he was a rah rah guy on the field. But, as Reusse has written, he was no saint. Life of the party? Sure. Binge drinking? You betcha. He and Gladden were legendary. Affairs? He was a hound. Had a 15-year affair with his limo driver. All this came out at the divorce proceedings, which documented his regular liaisons on the road. And then their was the assault. But let's not drag his character through the mud because he was a great leader on the field.

    Killer was a saint. Puck put on the saint persona, which was a lie.
    Hey.. didn't mean to touch a nerve. I can't judge Puck and wasn't thinking in terms of off-field stuff. I am a huge Mauer fan. (And I can now add Mauer to the list all-time best roommates)

    I'm not sure exactly what about my opinion was "insane"..

    Mauer's teams have done nothing to validate his great numbers. The pennant races are tons of fun, they are why baseball is worth caring about, but the playoff flameouts kind of throw cold water on all the work that came before it, don't you think? I have a real hard time just telling myself "the Twins have zero playoff wins - them's the breaks!" The Yankees were a downright mediocre playoff team those years.

    Anyway, I think Mauer would be the first to tell you that statistics and awards mean very little unless they contribute to some sort of championship run (I will include 2006 just because that was so special). This is an era of 33% participation in the playoffs so anything can happen, I expect the Mauer story is not yet complete.

  11. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    And if Mauer's "double" would have been correctly called fair in Yankees Stadium, who knows where things would have gone!
    You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score. In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs. Thats why Puckett is a legend, and Mauer isn't.....yet. And to say Puckett wouldnt have had the opportunity to be a playoff hero if not for everything around him falling into place is preposterous.
    Last edited by Marta Shearing; 02-20-2014 at 02:45 PM.

  12. #29
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Hey.. didn't mean to touch a nerve. I can't judge Puck and wasn't thinking in terms of off-field stuff. I am a huge Mauer fan. (And I can now add Mauer to the list all-time best roommates)

    I'm not sure exactly what about my opinion was "insane"..

    Mauer's teams have done nothing to validate his great numbers. The pennant races are tons of fun, they are why baseball is worth caring about, but the playoff flameouts kind of throw cold water on all the work that came before it, don't you think? I have a real hard time just telling myself "the Twins have zero playoff wins - them's the breaks!" The Yankees were a downright mediocre playoff team those years.

    Anyway, I think Mauer would be the first to tell you that statistics and awards mean very little unless they contribute to some sort of championship run (I will include 2006 just because that was so special). This is an era of 33% participation in the playoffs so anything can happen, I expect the Mauer story is not yet complete.
    Sorry, insane is a bit harsh. It just irks me when people say he is not a great leader. He is a quiet and effective leader. My brother was the captain of the hockey team when I was a freshman. Quietest guy in the dressing room. First guy on the ice, last guy to leave. Won every killer. He was the best leader I have ever known. Everybody respected him and looked up to him because he worked harder than everybody else on that dressing room. When he talked, everybody shut up and listened. To me, that's the kind of leader Mauer is.

    The fact that it hasn't led to a championship or a "signature moment" really isn't about Mauer's leadership. It's about the pitchers we had on the team. Santana was typically out of gas by playoff time. Ditto for Radke. We did not have a Frank Viola, Bert Blyleven, or Jack Morris on those teams. That's the difference.

    In '87, Kirby was a non-entity throughout the playoffs (.583) and turned it up a bit in the Series (.884). He mostly just rode the wave. In '91, he had a great playoff series (1.197) and a decent, but not great World Series. Then he did two amazing things, and all of a sudden, he's the best leader this town has ever seen? I was at that game. To this day it's the third best day of my life (after my wedding night and the birth of my son). But it was just one game. Take that game away from Puck and what do you have? You have a very good player who was flawed like the rest of us.

    Joe had a tough series against Oakland in 2006, a very good series against NY in 2009, and a tough series against NY in 2010. But nothing he did was going to change the outcome because he didn't have the pitching staff to beat teams in the playoffs. He can hardly be blaed for that. But I sure hope he does one day.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  14. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Facing CC Sabathia in game 1 all the times... CC is one of the few guys around to have owned Mauer (.465 career OPS).

    Come to think of it, Pettitte has owned him pretty hard too (career .681 OPS).

    Goes to show how much this team's luck has hinged on one guy.

  15. #31
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beemo View Post
    Post-season heroics are enough for most people to say Puckett easily tops Mauer. But he was a cold starter in playoffs series. If the rest of his team had performed in the post-season like Mauer's Twins did I think Puckett is looked at differently.

    In games 1 through 4 of all his playoff series, Puckett hit .227/.278/.424 with 1 HR and 7 RBI. Over games 5 through 7, he hit .457/.500/.714. Mauer never got a chance to hit in games 5 through 7.
    SSS aside, beautiful post.

    Kirby helped his teams win. Kirby did not win those championships by himself. If Mauer had even half the support Kirby had in 87 and 91, the Twins advance at least once or twice.

    IMO, Mauer is the better player and it's not even particularly close. Would Mauer hit .360 every season if he got to play in the SuperBall-era Metrodome? It's possible, maybe even likely. With the frequency he puts the ball on the ground, he'd be a hit machine in that stadium.

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  17. #32
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    Put Mauer in the dome.....in the live ball era? He's already hit 2 times as many HRs, and is already the best catcher of all time, well, close....
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #33
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score. In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs. Thats why Puckett is a legend, and Mauer isn't.....yet. And to say Puckett wouldnt have had the opportunity to be a playoff hero if not for everything around him falling into place is preposterous.
    ... but also true...

  19. #34
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    ... but also true...
    Damn you Phil Cuzzi!
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  20. #35
    Yes, it is absolutely sacrilege to mention Mauer in the same breath as Kirby. In terms of sheer talent, yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better) but in terms of players I would pay money to go see? No. Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.

  21. #36
    Senior Member Triple-A Jerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Killebrew, Carew, Mauer, Puckett, Olivia, Santana, Bleyleven, Hrbek

    Puckett is my all time favorite player ever, however IMO Mauer has already surpassed him.
    Mauer is already one of the best 3 or 4 catchers of all time, Puckett was/is a definite hall of famer, but not even close to one of the best CF of all time.

    Mauer plays a harder position, and significantly beats Puckett in Avg, OBP, OPS, OPS+. Mauer has 3 batting titles vs Puckett's 1. 1 MVP (should have been 2) vs 0. Puckett has the advantage in All Star games and home runs. At this point I think Mauer has proven to be a better player then Puckett in his 9(ish) years.

    Assuming Mauer has another 3-4 great years hitting wise followed by 2-3 good years, I think he surpasses Carew as well and becomes the 2nd greatest player in Franchise History.
    And THAT, ends the "argument"
    Last edited by Jerr; 02-20-2014 at 04:37 PM. Reason: I put Killebrew ahead of Puckett for all time favorite.

  22. #37
    Senior Member Triple-A D. Hocking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse's Mullet View Post
    , he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.
    You never saw the episode the Three Stooges guest-starred on Maude? Her scene with Curly is slapstick gold.

  23. #38
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score.
    You just made a pretty convincing argument why Mauer's playoff stats don't matter. Dude hits a double, has it taken away, still draws a walk, and then stands on base for the rest of the half inning. What's he supposed to do at that point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs.
    Puckett had a .208 BA and a .538 OPS in his first five playoff games. The Twins still advanced. In the WS, he had a decent but unspectacular .884 OPS. That's Puckett's first 12 playoff games and the Twins won a world series, largely without Kirby's help.

    Compare that to Mauer, who had a really bad .432 OPS in his first three playoff games. The Twins were swept.

    Then Joe went and posted a 1.000 OPS in his next three playoff games, despite being robbed of a double by Phil Cuzzi. The Twins were swept.

    Then Joe had another bad series, posting a .558 OPS in three more games. Again, the Twins were swept.

    Looking over those series, I draw one conclusion: no matter what Joe did, it couldn't prevent a sweep because nobody else was hitting or pitching. In 2009, he got on base 50% of the time against the Yankees. And, again, the Twins were swept. Not really sure what you expect a guy to do at that point.

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  25. #39
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse's Mullet View Post
    In terms of sheer talent, yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better)
    You have that backwards. Adjusted for era, Mauer's offensive numbers are quite a bit better than Puckett's and both were premium defenders in their primes, though Mauer played at the more valuable position.

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  27. #40
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    Comparing their best 5 seasons:

    bWAR
    Mauer: 7.8, 5.8, 5.7, 5.6, 5.4
    Puckett: 7.7, 7.1, 5.6, 4.9, 4.3

    OPS+
    Mauer: 171, 144, 144, 140, 140
    Puckett: 153, 142, 139, 132, 131

    Pretty close in WAR, as you might expect, but clear advantage to Mauer in terms of OPS+. He also has the opportunity to add to his record over the next few years

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