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Thread: Matt Capps, Bill Smith and the trade that ruined Twins baseball

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Might this man have been in charge of the farm system during the previous decade? If so, that might explain why the cupboard was found bare in 2011.
    Rantz retired in 2012 and was replaced by Stell, so no it is not the same person who has been in charge for the last decade.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Yeah, kind of hard to believe our favorite team's farm director.
    In this case, I would tend to trust any outside and neutral talent evaluator over a guy, part of whose job is to promote the players under his supervision. Produce just one outsider with scouting cred who has even suggested that Santana is the best athlete in the organization and I'll be all ears. But for now, put me down for nominating Steil as an early front-runner for most preposterous statement of the year.

    How many plus-plus and plus ratings does Santana possess in his arsenal?
    Did Santana strike out 18 batters while throwing 93 MPH FBs in a State Championship high school game?
    Has Santana been recently compared to 3 of the best pure athletes in baseball history, Mantle, Mays and Trout?

  3. #183
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    Two words: Tsuyishi Nishioka.
    Pretty sure that's that's the textbook definition for 'epic fail'.
    Feel free to pile on about Suzuki.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    In this case, I would tend to trust any outside and neutral talent evaluator over a guy, part of whose job is to promote the players under his supervision. Produce just one outsider with scouting cred who has even suggested that Santana is the best athlete in the organization and I'll be all ears. But for now, put me down for nominating Steil as an early front-runner for most preposterous statement of the year.

    How many plus-plus and plus ratings does Santana possess in his arsenal?
    Did Santana strike out 18 batters while throwing 93 MPH FBs in a State Championship high school game?
    Has Santana been recently compared to 3 of the best pure athletes in baseball history, Mantle, Mays and Trout?
    In regards to best pure athlete Bo Jackson says hello. Jordan might even be a better pure athlete, he just can't hit a minor league curve ball. Athleticism and baseball, or sports in general, it is what you do with what you got. From pure athleticism, Santana could be the best in the world. That doesn't matter if you can't put it together. Through time the scouting reports have been about Santana needing to put it together. There is no need for anyone outside the organization to rave about his athleticism when they point out what he doesn't do well.

    Santana is from the Dominican Republic, so he was not able pitch in a state championship.

    In regards to describing the talent that works for him Stell needs to be honest in his appraisals if he wants to be taken seriously.
    Last edited by The Wise One; 03-01-2014 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTrane View Post
    Two words: Tsuyishi Nishioka.
    Pretty sure that's that's the textbook definition for 'epic fail'.
    In terms of money being spent in baseball, epic no. There are a lot more contracts given out for more money that failed to produce to what their contract paid them.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    In regards to best pure athlete Bo Jackson says hello. Jordan might even be a better pure athlete, he just can't hit a minor league curve ball. Athleticism and baseball, or sports in general, it is what you do with what you got. From pure athleticism, Santana could be the best in the world. That doesn't matter if you can't put it together. Through time the scouting reports have been about Santana needing to put it together. There is no need for anyone outside the organization to rave about his athleticism when they point out what he doesn't do well.

    Santana is from the Dominican Republic, so he was not able pitch in a state championship.

    In regards to describing the talent that works for him Stell needs to be honest in his appraisals if he wants to be taken seriously.
    I'm well aware of where Santana is from, regardless, I haven't heard word one about any pitching prowess that he might posess.

    I never said that Mantle, Mays and Trout were the 3 best pure athletes in baseball history, I said that they were "3 of the best". Bo was a freak, and I haven't seen any comparisons on Jordan or Jackson to Santana- but there is now prima facie evidence that Buxton has matched or exceeded Bo's times from Home to First and his times from Home to Third. I also haven't seen any reports that Santana is faster than Buxton. I haven't seen any reports that he has a better arm than Buxton. I haven't heard any reports that he's stronger than Buxton. These are all components of athleticism that don't require "putting things together."

    And we disagree about Steil's role. Part of it clearly lies in public relations, the club needs everyone in the organization who acts as a spokesman help market the product with their public utterances. Who is there to hold him accountable for the seriousness of his intent and what are the downside consequences for him by using a little descriptive hyperbole to speculate a little loosely about minor league prospects?

    Again, I have yet to see one outside and neutral evaluation of Santana that even hints at Santana as the most athletic Twins prospect, certainly that is something that would actually help outside evaluators to be taken more seriously, if it were proven to be true- it would also provide them the rationale should their evaluation of his potential not pan out. Your logic just doesn't end up holding true.
    Last edited by jokin; 03-02-2014 at 06:04 AM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Isn't the one talking point in favor of Florimon his range? And Santana's going to be "a big upgrade" over that?
    I haven't seen him, but I've read that his range is "amazing," something like Guzmann's when he first came up. Think Florimon reactions with young Guzmann's speed.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Where would Polanco and Minier rank in that list? I have no knowledge of
    Vielma's athleticism, but it seems rather unlikely that anyone in the organization, even Santana, is more athletic than Buxton.
    Gladen only mentioned the names of Buxton Daniel Santana, and Engelb Vielma being part of their discussion, but yeah, it's hard to believe anyone culd be more athletic, so it's a good indication that we're maybe in for a treat with these guys eventually.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I'm well aware of where Santana is from, regardless, I haven't heard word one about any pitching prowess that he might posess.

    I never said that Mantle, Mays and Trout were the 3 best pure athletes in baseball history, I said that they were "3 of the best". Bo was a freak, and I haven't seen any comparisons on Jordan or Jackson to Santana- but there is now prima facie evidence that Buxton has matched or exceeded Bo's times from Home to First and his times from Home to Third. I also haven't seen any reports that he is faster than Buxton. I haven't seen any reports that he has a better arm than Buxton. I haven't heard any reports that he's stronger than Buxton. These are all components of athleticism that don't require "putting things together."

    And we disagree about Steil's role. Part of it clearly lies in public relations, the club needs everyone in the organization who acts as a spokesman help market the product with their public utterances. Who is there to hold him accountable for the seriousness of his intent and what are the downside consequences for him by using a little descriptive hyperbole to speculate a little loosely about minor league prospects?

    Again, I have yet to see one outside and neutral evaluation of Santana that even hints at Santana as the most athletic Twins prospect, certainly that is something that would actually help outside evaluators to be taken more seriously, if it were proven to be true- it would also provide them the rationale should their evaluation of his potential not pan out. Your logic just doesn't end up holding true.
    What is the downside to a little hyperbole? A reasonable person sees it for what it is. The person who wants to complain will find something to complain about regardless.
    Scouting reports are based on skill. Santana has yet to show an elite skill.From scouting reports and game reports. He has speed. He has a good arm. He has made some great plays in the field. He has inconsistency. He isn't great with the bat. Sorry I am not going to link everything for you. Why would talent observersers care beyond that? They are saying what he does as a ballplayer. Athletisicm per se does not make you a good ballplayer. There is no need to focus on it as a talent evelauator. What you are concerned about are the specific skills to play the game. A farm director will mention it because it is something positive to say. It would be why they would hope a player continues to develop.

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  11. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    What spin are the Twins suppose to put on him? Are they to come out and state they believe Santanas upside is utility player, our cupboards are bare for shortstops and we still wont spend any money to fix it?
    I don't share your cynicism. Why is it so hard to believe that a broadcaster and a field guy are standing around during spring training and start a conversation when Santana is on the field in front of them that leads to what Gladden said? Are you sure you're not grasping for things to criticise?

  12. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    What is the downside to a little hyperbole? A reasonable person sees it for what it is. The person who wants to complain will find something to complain about regardless.
    Scouting reports are based on skill. Santana has yet to show an elite skill.From scouting reports and game reports. He has speed. He has a good arm. He has made some great plays in the field. He has inconsistency. He isn't great with the bat. Sorry I am not going to link everything for you. Why would talent observersers care beyond that? They are saying what he does as a ballplayer. Athletisicm per se does not make you a good ballplayer. There is no need to focus on it as a talent evelauator. What you are concerned about are the specific skills to play the game. A farm director will mention it because it is something positive to say. It would be why they would hope a player continues to develop.

    What is the downside to a little hyperbole? A reasonable person sees it for what it is. The person who wants to complain will find something to complain about regardless.
    Who's complaining? I was merely observing. It's good to see we reach a reasonable point of agreement so quickly in our discussion.

    Why would talent observersers care beyond that? They are saying what he does as a ballplayer. Athletisicm per se does not make you a good ballplayer. There is no need to focus on it as a talent evelauator. What you are concerned about are the specific skills to play the game.
    I think we all agree about the fact that athleticism per se does not make you a good ballplayer. The importance and reason why talent evaluators would care, and very much do care and need to put some focus on the athlete, beyond the statement of a specific skillset, is to establish potential floors and ceilings. Buxton's raw athleticism is a key component to him being compared to having the potential ceiling of a Mays, Mantle and Trout. The "specific skills" a prospect currently possesses can become much better when the raw athleticism is harnessed as the player physically matures and his skillset is developed.

    A farm director will mention it because it is something positive to say. It would be why they would hope a player continues to develop.
    Again, we seem to have come to an agreement about a farm director's job description. In this case, the part of the job about Steil putting Santana in a very positive, if somewhat exaggerated light, accomplishes many things, it pushes the player to meet the team's expectations, and drives the fans' hope and interest for the future, at no cost to his credibility, and it is precisely the type of thing that the club wants said during Spring Training, when hope and optimism spring most eternal. It even generates barroom and chatroom discussions about the MN Twins, including my "reality check" to his statement, as we're engaging in right now.

  13. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Gladen only mentioned the names of Buxton Daniel Santana, and Engelb Vielma being part of their discussion, but yeah, it's hard to believe anyone culd be more athletic, so it's a good indication that we're maybe in for a treat with these guys eventually.
    As many faults as Gladden has as a broadcaster, his World Series ring and crusty personality give him the bona fides to talk more freely about what he really thinks. The fact that he puts Vielma and Santana somewhere in the same athletic realm as Buck carries a lot of weight with both you and me. I've been in on Polanco, after seeing him play previously, we all know of Hicks' gifts as an athlete, now I can get in on Vielma, too. This club is in yawning need for more players who provide the athletically explosive dimension. Steil's comment served multiple purposes, it acknowledged that Gladden was on the right track and should continue that topic on-air for debate as the season progrsses, while it also served to push not only Santana to prove it to be true, but for Buck, Vielma, Polanco and Minier to prove it wrong. Good things to think about on the weekend where we Twins fans lost out on one of our greatest expectations for 2014.
    Last edited by jokin; 03-02-2014 at 07:35 AM.

  14. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    I don't share your cynicism. Why is it so hard to believe that a broadcaster and a field guy are standing around during spring training and start a conversation when Santana is on the field in front of them that leads to what Gladden said? Are you sure you're not grasping for things to criticise?
    This makes sense to me. Steil was overhyping Santana, mostly because Buxton is a stronger version of Santana with way better hit and power tools. But the fact that they are in the same conversation is encouraging.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    As many faults as Gladden has as a broadcaster, his World Series ring and crusty personality give him the bona fides to talk more freely about what he really thinks. The fact that he puts Vielma and Santana somewhere in the same athletic realm as Buck carries a lot of weight with both you and me. I've been in on Polanco, after seeing him play previously, we all know of Hicks' gifts as an athlete, now I can get in on Vielma, too. This club is in yawning need for more players who provide the athletically explosive dimension. Steil's comment served multiple purposes, it acknowledged that Gladden was on the right track and should continue that topic on-air for debate as the season progrsses, while it also served to push not only Santana to prove it to be true, but for Buck, Vielma, Polanco and Minier to prove it wrong. Good things to think about on the weekend where we Twins fans lost out on one of our greatest expectations for 2014.
    Once again, it was not Gladden who spoke of Santana and Vielma. He simply shared a casual conversation he had woth Steil, and expressed his thought that, with Buxton around, calling someone other than Buxton the "best athlete" makes this a conversation worth sharing.

    It's not something that deserves the drama and scrutiny you're creating about it, jokin.

  16. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Once again, it was not Gladden who spoke of Santana and Vielma. He simply shared a casual conversation he had woth Steil, and expressed his thought that, with Buxton around, calling someone other than Buxton the "best athlete" makes this a conversation worth sharing.

    It's not something that deserves the drama and scrutiny you're creating about it, jokin.
    No drama. 3 names mentioned, Gladden generally concurs that they are all gifted athletically. He points out that the conclusion is a bit surprising and a conversation worth sharing.

    Steil starts the conversaton in motion, gets it into circulation among those of us interested in the MN Twins. Reaction from fans like myself who characterize this stated opinion for its inherent value. Buzz about the team and its up-and-coming prospects (besides Buxton and Sano) for the future ensues.

    Mission accomplished.

  17. #196
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    I'm glad to see a little buzz about prospects other than Buxton and Sano and Meyer. They are 3 wonderful prospects and likely to be stars.

    But they aren't all that has helped make the Twins farm system one of the best at the present time.

    And, it is always fun to see guys move up and down the prospect rankings. If there's a bit of hype about some of them, I take it all with a grain of salt because one thing is clear, the only thing that is predictable is that some prospects will surprise in a good way and some will disappoint.

  18. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Who's complaining? I was merely observing. It's good to see we reach a reasonable point of agreement so quickly in our discussion.



    I think we all agree about the fact that athleticism per se does not make you a good ballplayer. The importance and reason why talent evaluators would care, and very much do care and need to put some focus on the athlete, beyond the statement of a specific skillset, is to establish potential floors and ceilings. Buxton's raw athleticism is a key component to him being compared to having the potential ceiling of a Mays, Mantle and Trout. The "specific skills" a prospect currently possesses can become much better when the raw athleticism is harnessed as the player physically matures and his skillset is developed.



    Again, we seem to have come to an agreement about a farm director's job description. In this case, the part of the job about Steil putting Santana in a very positive, if somewhat exaggerated light, accomplishes many things, it pushes the player to meet the team's expectations, and drives the fans' hope and interest for the future, at no cost to his credibility, and it is precisely the type of thing that the club wants said during Spring Training, when hope and optimism spring most eternal. It even generates barroom and chatroom discussions about the MN Twins, including my "reality check" to his statement, as we're engaging in right now.
    You really were not complaining, if I called it what I saw as I would be banned. It is good to see that you changed your opinion on farm directors hyping the positive of their players. Santana could well be pound for pound the most athletic player. He sees the rreports on what the player can and cannot do. He sees reports from the managers. You want reports from outsiders that have seen him how often?
    Last edited by The Wise One; 03-03-2014 at 02:33 AM.

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