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Thread: Worley blames the wind

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Great thread. For his next act: he'll complain about wind-aided ground balls.

    As we said all winter, the pitching surplus will work itself out in spring training. This guy's toast. Deduno is trying to pitch with an ice pack strapped to his shoulder. Diamond is struggling with command. And Gibson just keeps throwing bullets.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Great thread. For his next act: he'll complain about wind-aided ground balls.

    As we said all winter, the pitching surplus will work itself out in spring training. This guy's toast. Deduno is trying to pitch with an ice pack strapped to his shoulder. Diamond is struggling with command. And Gibson just keeps throwing bullets.
    I agree that the pitching surplus will work itself out this spring. I also think it a bit early to draw too many conclusions about any individual pitcher. There was an article that Worley had more velocity this spring than last. If true, that would be more important than struggles in his 2nd spring appearance. He, Diamond and Deduno, if healthy will get their chances this spring. So will Gibson. Along with the new guys. I just hope at least 5 are pitching well and are healthy come the end of spring training.

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    WAY too early to write Worley off after this outing, especially after coming in healthy, in better shape, and reportedly throwing with good velocity. But I don't know that I've even heard a knuckleball pitcher complain about the wind for a poor performance. A few big hits or a wind aided HR sure, but come on.

    As I and others have repeatedly stated, performance, injury and talent should sort the SP situation out. I have no ill will towards any of the candidates, but there is no question Gibson has the greatest talent of the competitors as well as the brightest future. And we know how well Deduno pitched last season. It's hard not to root for those two guys, especially Gibson.

    And let me state again how opposed I am to "stashing" a candidate in the bullpen at the expense of a quality relief candidate. "You can't cut it as a SP for us so we're going to throw you in the bullpen and send down someone who can do the job to give you another shot," doesn't make sense to me, and doesn't seem to keep both the immediate and future of the ball club in mind.

    On a very positive note, I'm very pleased to read some of the quotes from Gardenhire this spring in regard to team needs and the talent and potential of the young players in camp. In the past few days Gardy has been effusive in his praise of Santana, and all but publicly stated the need and preference for Hicks as the starting CF for the team. I believe he is fully on board with the team transition, and has begun to move beyond his previous comfort level with veterans almost exclusively.

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  7. #24
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    WAY too early to write Worley off after this outing, especially after coming in healthy, in better shape, and reportedly throwing with good velocity.
    You're right. FWIW, my attitudes vis-a-vis Worley are unrelated to this one bad start. At the risk of repeating myself, I take a dim view of guys who rely so heavily on the sinker. Having seen what happened to Mays, Silva, and Blackburn, I question whether that type of pitcher can have long-term success in baseball in this day and age. Blackburn came into camp in 2012 in "the best shape of his life" with a healthy elbow and velocity readings touching 94. The harder he threw, the straighter he threw. Without a decent slider, he was a batting-practice pitcher. That's what we saw from Worley last year. I hope he's better, but I have grave doubts that he will be.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    You're right. FWIW, my attitudes vis-a-vis Worley are unrelated to this one bad start. At the risk of repeating myself, I take a dim view of guys who rely so heavily on the sinker. Having seen what happened to Mays, Silva, and Blackburn, I question whether that type of pitcher can have long-term success in baseball in this day and age. Blackburn came into camp in 2012 in "the best shape of his life" with a healthy elbow and velocity readings touching 94. The harder he threw, the straighter he threw. Without a decent slider, he was a batting-practice pitcher. That's what we saw from Worley last year. I hope he's better, but I have grave doubts that he will be.
    Last year was the first year that Worley used the sinker more often than the 4 seam. His previous two years were 25 and 30 percent sinkers. That is high but no where near Blackburn territory. Blackburn rarely threw a 4 seam and was over 50% sinkers.

    Worley in the NL was closer to Nolasco (20% the last two years) than Blackburn in his reliance of the sinker.

    Why did Worley increase his sinker usage last year to 42%? The injury? The coaching and pitch calling?

    If it is the Twins, will they also increase Nolasco's use of the sinker?

    In any case, Worley's pitch mix in Philadelphia in no way compares to Blackburn.

  9. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I feel like claiming spring training starts are genuine chances is a lot like claiming chatting to a woman online counts as a date.

    ST Is largely meaningless. Lets keep this quote in perspective for what it is - a stupid excuse. It doesn't change that Worley has been a better pitcher three years ago than any of our other staters (save one) has ever been. One ST doesn't change that.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 03-08-2014 at 04:04 PM.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I feel like claiming spring training starts are genuine chances is a lot like claiming chatting to a woman online counts as a date.

    ST Is largely meaningless. Lets keep this quote in perspective for what it is - a stupid excuse. It doesn't change that Worley has been a better pitcher three years ago than any of our other staters (save one) has ever been. One ST doesn't change that.
    A team that has lost 90+ games three years in a row, doesn't care that Worley had a good season three years ago. ST maybe largely meaningless, but that doesn't mean decisions won't be made based on how well Worley, Diamond, and Deduno perform.

  11. #28
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    A team that has lost 90+ games three years in a row, doesn't care that Worley had a good season three years ago. ST maybe largely meaningless, but that doesn't mean decisions won't be made based on how well Worley, Diamond, and Deduno perform.
    Then that's sad. They should be based on who has the best chance to help this team now and going forward. Not who has the most veteran presence or how many split-squad walk-on types they retired in a meaningless game.

    We've already had our acting General Manager all but confirm Gibson doesn't have a shot at breaking camp with the team. Teams with three straight 90+ loss seasons shouldn't be so quick to lock anyone into a spot nor lock anyone out of a spot if there is upside to be had.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Then that's sad. They should be based on who has the best chance to help this team now and going forward. Not who has the most veteran presence or how many split-squad walk-on types they retired in a meaningless game.

    We've already had our acting General Manager all but confirm Gibson doesn't have a shot at breaking camp with the team. Teams with three straight 90+ loss seasons shouldn't be so quick to lock anyone into a spot nor lock anyone out of a spot if there is upside to be had.
    Gibson still has a fair shot at making the rotation until it is in fact confirmed, but being first man up is hardly career threatening. 25 or so Major League starts with a strong possibility of being penciled into the rotation for 2015 seems like a good plan.
    Last edited by howieramone; 03-08-2014 at 08:42 PM.

  13. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    You're right. FWIW, my attitudes vis-a-vis Worley are unrelated to this one bad start. At the risk of repeating myself, I take a dim view of guys who rely so heavily on the sinker. Having seen what happened to Mays, Silva, and Blackburn, I question whether that type of pitcher can have long-term success in baseball in this day and age. .
    Alright. Can you take that one step further and maybe say that a pitching coach who wants all of his pitchers to throw the sinker first and foremost does not belong in baseball in this day and age?
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  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    I don't see a problem with it. That's the excuse I use when my performance is substandard at my job (Mall Restroom Cleaning Specialist).
    That's interesting, because that's the excuse I use when I miss the urinal at the mall restroom.

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  16. #32
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    That's interesting, because that's the excuse I use when I miss the urinal at the mall restroom.
    Ish.


    Yes, I know that's off topic.

  17. #33
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    Revelation! The Twins are huge proponents of the "sinker"--love those ground balls--and especially low pitch-counts! Purportedly the Twins strongly discourage (ban?) the use of split-fingered fastballs, but fully endorse the 2-seam fast-ball ("sinker"). Note: the difference is how far the ball is pushed down between the fingers.

  18. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    That's interesting, because that's the excuse I use when I miss the urinal at the mall restroom.
    So you're the guy. Shame, shame.

    Jeesh... my tongue can only take so much abuse.

  19. #35
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Revelation! The Twins are huge proponents of the "sinker"--love those ground balls--and especially low pitch-counts! Purportedly the Twins strongly discourage (ban?) the use of split-fingered fastballs, but fully endorse the 2-seam fast-ball ("sinker"). Note: the difference is how far the ball is pushed down between the fingers.
    No
    (other than the first sentence.)
    There are several Twins' pitchers who are throwing splitters, including Burton and Pelfrey.
    A splitter is a changeup and not a fastball
    The splitter grip can be either like the 4-seamer or the 2-seamer (with the fingers running on the side of the ball) and not touching the seams. On the 2-seamer you have to run your fingers across the seams.

    4-seamer like splitter grip (but fingers need to be even further apart) :



    2-seamer like splitter grip



    2-seamer grip.

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  20. #36
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    A splitter is a changeup and not a fastball
    This.

  21. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    This.
    Your own pictures show my point--the amount of the ball between the fingers. It acts like a changeup because the the velocity of the ball drops so much more than a 2-seamer (which also slows down).

  22. #38
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    It acts like a changeup
    If it walks like a duck, and kwak's like a duck...

    / sorry, kinda had to

  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    If it walks like a duck, and kwak's like a duck...]
    ...its Barolo Colon.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  25. #40
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I am no fan of the way Anderson has coached guys like Garza, Baker, and Slowey. I think the whole sinker philosophy is antiquated. I also have come to deplore pitch to contact. But I understand why the Twins have not adopted the new emphasis on strikeouts: It's just hard to acquire strikeout pitchers. Strikeout pitchers are like shortstops who can hit. If you're a pitching coach and you don't have strike-out pitchers, what do you do? Teach them how to keep the ball down and sink it. It is the only chance they have.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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