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Thread: Heyman: The Twins made a 3-year offer to Ervin Santana

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    They'll be cheap for 6 years. What the Twins budget looks like now isn't all that important really.

    Money has never been my issue with this. It was the guaranteed contracts/spots that is my issue. What Meyer/Sano/Buxton/Kepler/Rosario/Arcia all represent is a wave of cheap, young, impact players. Regardless of what budget space you have it is ALWAYS good to be getting high quality play from cheap players.
    I think your "blocking" argument has some legs. Obviously it is subjective so people will fall on both sides. I was just responding to the idea that money should be any part of this conversation. If this was 1999, you have some points. But it's not and the Twins are awash with unspent cash.

  2. #202
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    So I think cost was a factor. I think 30$ million is a lot of money even for a baseball ownership. What diehard said a while back: Twins just didn't think Santana was worth what he was asking, Twins had already awarded two contracts like that this offseason, and many people want to see what happens with the battle for the fifth rotation spot. I can live with all of that.

    Gibson was out for about a week as he became a new daddy! (congrats to Kyle and Elizabeth by the way) but he'll come back with a chance to pitch himself into the rotation now.

  3. #203
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    I think your "blocking" argument has some legs. Obviously it is subjective so people will fall on both sides. I was just responding to the idea that money should be any part of this conversation. If this was 1999, you have some points. But it's not and the Twins are awash with unspent cash.
    Part of it is the comp pick being attached. If that wasn't there the 1 year deals would make a ton of sense but that's not the situation here.

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  5. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Part of it is the comp pick being attached. If that wasn't there the 1 year deals would make a ton of sense but that's not the situation here.
    That's a good point and one I concur with. I feel the same about Drew and Morales. I would like them signed, but not for one year.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  7. #205
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Part of my unease about adding more pitching depth is my admiration for Gibson. I have not seen that much movement on a fastball at that velocity since Scott Erickson. And I think he has a better slider than Erickson ever had. I think he was squeezed a lot last year and changed his approach to get more strikes called, which made him more hittable. This time around, I look for him to be the type of guy to get a lot of ground balls and a lot of strikeouts.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  9. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Part of my unease about adding more pitching depth is my admiration for Gibson. I have not seen that much movement on a fastball at that velocity since Scott Erickson. And I think he has a better slider than Erickson ever had. I think he was squeezed a lot last year and changed his approach to get more strikes called, which made him more hittable. This time around, I look for him to be the type of guy to get a lot of ground balls and a lot of strikeouts.
    I am also very high on Gibson. I don't get why everyone is so down on this guy. He was a top 5 or 10 pick pre-injury concern. He falls to us, we get him and at 22 he goes from high A to AAA in one year with a sub 3.00 ERA. Then the next year he is not right and his numbers are shaky, then he needs TJ. Is out a year and half. He puts up a 2.92 ERA in 151 IP in AAA, then after 10 starts (5-6 very bad starts) we lump him into the same conversation as Diamond, Worley, etc.

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  11. #207
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Then he gets lumped into the same conversation as Diamond, Worley, etc.
    Well...what do they all have in common? One spot to fight for. I wish he had a spot regardless but all the dialogue from the Twins indicate he's not even in the running for that spot.

    It's not that people are down on him, it's that he'll be a Red Wing and not a Twin to start this season. That's part of the problem.

  12. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    The O's dont' have tons of money, but the Jays aren't exactly cash strapped... and yet they didn't sign Santana. Why would they give up something of value for KC?

    I think Levi is right here. Pelfrey won't go at the deadline and KC won't go until then.
    I cited 3 scenario's for a KC trade:

    1) A team like the Blue Jays or Orioles

    2) A contender adding depth and using him as a long reliever and insurance policy

    3) A team that has an injury between now and April 1

    In scenario 1, I think the Blue Jays would be a near lock to take him. The issue with them is nobody wants to sign there and play in Toronto (a trade would be ideal then). Ervin had 1/14 on the table for days and took the same thing from Atlanta within minutes. A story I read showed how upset the Blue Jays GM was and how up a creek they are as their 4th and 5th starters are huge question marks.

    In scenario 2, it is much easier to add a $5M insurance policy (KC) to your bullpen than it is to add a $12 - $14M insurance policy (Ervin).

    In scenario 3, I know we had one pitcher on the market and one team had an injury and the deal was done in the same day. Now no more pitchers exist. CC was throwing at 88 mph and got rocked, Garza has a 19.06 ERA so far....are they hurt? I am guessing a few good pitchers get hurt in the next two weeks. If not we could go into the first few weeks of the year.

    My read is we could move KC now, but think we can get more on July 31st. Gibson will start in AAA and get confidence and Meyer won't be up until June. so I don't think the urgency is there for the Twins.

  13. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Well...what do they all have in common? One spot to fight for. I wish he had a spot regardless but all the dialogue from the Twins indicate he's not even in the running for that spot.

    It's not that people are down on him, it's that he'll be a Red Wing and not a Twin to start this season. That's part of the problem.
    In the numerous "blocking" discussions. Gibson is lumped into the same conversation as the others. The Twins could care less about blocking Worley or Diamond.

    He is a level above these guys.

  14. #210
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I'd also like to suggest that this is enlightening to the conversation:

    http://grantland.com/features/mlb-pr...-rays-marlins/

    Antony said it himself about the two big prospects, but I think it speaks to the organization's approach as a whole.

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  16. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Phew. Welp, I'm just glad the Braves got him.

    Bullet. Dodged.
    Hey now!
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

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  18. #212
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    In the numerous "blocking" discussions. Gibson is lumped into the same conversation as the others. The Twins could care less about blocking Worley or Diamond.

    He is a level above these guys.
    He's in the same group that are all lumped into 5-9 in the depth chart. Not because of talent, but because of where they are in the depth chart.

    You're turning it into something else that I don't think anyone is arguing.

  19. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He's in the same group that are all lumped into 5-9 in the depth chart. Not because of talent, but because of where they are in the depth chart.

    You're turning it into something else that I don't think anyone is arguing.
    On pages 1 and 2 of this thread alone, two people posted a future rotation with no mention of Gibson, other people commented on it. Less than half the comments reference Gibson and when they do it usually is an "if".

  20. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    On pages 1 and 2 of this thread alone, two people posted a future rotation with no mention of Gibson, other people commented on it. Less than half the comments reference Gibson and when they do it usually is an "if".
    I didn't see Worley in those future rotations either. You're suggesting that people are lumping them together by talent and I don't see any evidence of that at all. Did some people forget Gibson? Yeah, I guess they did.

    But lumping him with Diamond/Worley? The only time that's happening is to express that he does not have one of the 4 spots cemented and is in the mish-mash of 6 guys in line for a chance.

    One of my reasons for not wanting Santana is because I want Gibson in the rotation April 1. I've been campaigning to buy a Correia off with an early retirement package in the Virgin Islands if it would get Gibson into the rotation. I despise the notion that he has basically zero shot of making this club out of ST. Adding to the pile of guaranteed spots only further reduces his chances.

    For all the talk that he'll "earn" his way in - last year he was earning high quality performances left and right while we enjoyed the dreck of Pedro Hernandez and Liam Hendricks. So no, I don't want that line to get any longer than it already is.

  21. #215
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    If our favorite team based their decisions solely on talent, then Gibson would be behind Stewart and possibly Thorpe also. Posters have theorized Gibson was ready last season by the end of May, he was brought up around mid-June. Can anyone give a credible example where the Twins blocked a starting pitching prospect which is not measured in days, hours, minutes, and seconds?
    Last edited by howieramone; 03-13-2014 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Remove irrelevant quotation of earlier post

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  23. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He's in the same group that are all lumped into 5-9 in the depth chart. Not because of talent, but because of where they are in the depth chart.

    You're turning it into something else that I don't think anyone is arguing.
    That 5-9 is going to get thinned out before opening day. I wish for the day that the Twins have so many good starters that good prospects are being blocked by them. I don't think 2014 is that year.

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  25. #217
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    If our favorite team based their decisions solely on talent, then Gibson would be behind Stewart and possibly Thorpe also. Posters have theorized Gibson was ready last season by the end of May, he was brought up by mid-June. Can anyone give a credible example where the Twins blocked a starting pitching prospect which is not measured in days, hours, minutes, and seconds?
    It depends on what you mean by "semantics."

    I think the word "talent" here means, roughly, "ability" or "skills." Not "tools." The view is, he better able to get major league hitters out than the likes of Correia.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  26. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    That 5-9 is going to get thinned out before opening day. I wish for the day that the Twins have so many good starters that good prospects are being blocked by them. I don't think 2014 is that year.
    That remains to be seen - I wouldn't rule out all of them staying with this team in some capacity or another.

    And again, the fallacy in your logic is that the starter has to be "good" to block the young player. On top of being unsure what "good" actually means (afterall, are we comparing ERA in AAA to the majors? "stuff"?), the decision is often made based on factors outside of performance or based on nuances of development we aren't always aware of. You can also couple that with the article I posted above where Rob Antony said a "clear path" is most important. By definition, a guy with a large contract represents an obstacle on that clear path.

    To put it simply, if the Twins demote Pelfrey/Correia/Hughes/Whomever with a 5+ ERA in May to call up Gibson I'll be the happiest crow-eater you'll ever find. But I'm not exactly preheating the oven right now for my feast. It's my belief that it isn't how good these guys are going to pitch, but whether they are healthy enough to. That will determine if they block anyone or not.

  27. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    If our favorite team based their decisions solely on talent, then Gibson would be behind Stewart and possibly Thorpe also. Posters have theorized Gibson was ready last season by the end of May, he was brought up by mid-June.
    Gibson's first MLB game was June 29, 2013.

  28. #220
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    ...where Rob Antony said a "clear path" is most important. By definition, a guy with a large contract represents an obstacle on that clear path.
    good catch Leviathan. Antony pretty much did imply that some guys get blocked and other don't, in the context of saying the Twins want to give Plouffe more time to develop at the major league level regardless of how well they thought Sano could hit.

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