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Thread: And then there were two.

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all?
    I'm actually thinking that may be a "Yes" (which is actually a No, hitting may not make him the regular catcher):



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    No it is dumb to bring up in every freaking thread. This thread is about if the Twins should sign Drew and/or Morales, and it is pretty clear that the Twins have the budget to do so. They have enough to sign both, it literally has nothing to do with this 52% stuff.

    I would love to hear which top prospects are getting held back in favor of place-holders?
    Is Arica not getting a shot? Is Hicks not giving a shot to regain the starting position? Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all? Is Gibson not being given ops?
    I believe holding the ownership accountable. Here is a story from 2007 about 50% of revenue from Mr. Pohlad. Seems like they have been at where they stated they would be and what they cite in the Dome (much lower revenue) and year 1 in Target Field. We are under 40% now.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3017356

  3. #63
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    I'm actually thinking that may be a "Yes" (which is actually a No, hitting may not make him the regular catcher):


    We have been over this before in re: Pinto. Replacing Mauer is no easy task, to tell the world that Pinto is the man who is taking over for one of the best catchers in the history of the game puts a ton of pressure on the kid to succeed immediately. There are still questions about if Pinto is ready defensively, and though he was nice in the majors last year it was a seriously SSS.

    As mentioned, if Pinto can prove to be decent defensively and hits at all, he will end up starting the most games at Catcher this year. If he struggles defensively/needs work, then he will still be getting plenty of at bats at DH assuming he is hitting.

    The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.
    Suzuki is not a lifetime veteran backup. In fact, 2013 was the first time he'd ever been a backup. And he still wound up starting a majority of games and netting 300+ PA (although it was more a function of Ramos injury, I think).

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Suzuki is not a lifetime veteran backup. In fact, 2013 was the first time he'd ever been a backup. And he still wound up starting a majority of games and netting 300+ PA (although it was more a function of Ramos injury, I think).
    Yeah, well....for some Twins fans, maybe even Dave and I, 2013 sure seemed like a lifetime.

  6. #66
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    I have to say the 52% argument is getting to be a bit of a tired line. Yep the Twins have money to burn, the owner won't use profits from this year and move them forward to future years. We can afford pretty much any free agent we want and they could spend up to their self imposed cap to provide us with a better team. I've got that and it's been on most every post involving free agents on this board. Thing is the spending is out of our control and this topic of 52% has been beaten to death.

    I prefer the analysis of the players we have, or possible trades etc to reading about the 52% argument every day. I for one could do without hearing about it for the rest of the year.

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  8. #67
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    It will save me a ton of money if the roster is Willingham, Mastro, Kubel, Suzuki, Plouffe, Floriman, as 6 of the regular nine......because I actually do withhold my money when a pro sports team puts a bad product on the field that offers no hope.

    As for the argument about money.....it is usually posters on these board stating "they should be glad they didn't overpay/spend that much money on that guy", and THEN those of us that believe they have plenty of money ask why that matters......since they have plenty of money in the coffers. But I'm happy to leave that conversation now.

    I believe Santana was a better signing opportunity than Pelfrey. Pelf wasn't that good before the injury......I think Pelf is a 5ht starter, and for a team that won't spend $150MM+ on payroll, that spot should be taken up by a guy trying to earn his way onto the roster, not by a veteran that was never all that good to begin with.
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #68
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Just a friendly mod reminder: we discourage posts with an "I dont want to read that" angle.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  11. #69
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Honestly, I see the same posters with the same complaints about money and revenue; and the same folks trying to fence those complaints. Can we get some moderation so not every thread turns into this same overwrought discussion where it is already so clear where everyone stands.

  12. #70
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Just a friendly mod reminder: we discourage posts with an "I dont want to read that" angle.
    How else should we let you know? Do I flag every post by the couple of posters that (IMO) derail threads? That seems extreme and annoying for everyone. I don't think it's too much to ask you guys to be proactive about it.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 03-12-2014 at 01:51 PM.

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    SpiritofVodkaDave (03-12-2014)

  14. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The Twins handled the Santana and Garza situation correctly, IMO. Lowball them late in the offseason and if one bites, great. If not, that's fine. I think they should be focusing on offense at this point anyway.

    Hopefully they feel the same way.
    But -- how many guys ever sign true lowball offers? I can't really think of any, of the top of my head. The point of taking advantage of the market isn't about trying to get a lowball steal 1% of the time, but getting an asset at a discount more frequently than that.

    IMO, the Garza offer was less of a lowball -- slight lowball in terms of years more than AAV. Although it hurts that the offer that beat us basically just added a 4th guaranteed year at $8 mil. Not all "guaranteed 4th years" are equal -- that's Hughes/Pelfrey gambling money. (Although I still strongly suspect Garza didn't prefer a Twins reunion and/or preferred Milwaukee and staying in the NL Central.)

    Santana has been healthier but a little more up and down over his career. 3/30 or even 3/33 seems lowball in both years and dollars, and would have been completely inappropriate if it wasn't March and Santana wasn't desperate to get back on the field. I would have like to see them make more of an honest offer here -- 3/39 would have been a lowball in years, but not AAV, and could have snagged us an asset. Or 4/44 would have been lowball in AAV but not years.
    Last edited by spycake; 03-12-2014 at 01:55 PM.

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  16. #72
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    Maybe every time they don't spend money, the same posters shouldn't come here and say it is a good thing they didn't, because it would have been bad for business? That would stop me from saying "they have plenty of money".
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    No it is dumb to bring up in every freaking thread. This thread is about if the Twins should sign Drew and/or Morales, and it is pretty clear that the Twins have the budget to do so. They have enough to sign both, it literally has nothing to do with this 52% stuff.

    I would love to hear which top prospects are getting held back in favor of place-holders?
    Is Arica not getting a shot? Is Hicks not giving a shot to regain the starting position? Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all? Is Gibson not being given ops?
    We agree, that the Twins have the money to sign Santana, Drew and Morales. Why they aren't doing so is what's up for debate- there's nothing "literal" about it. The club made it publicly known that they intended to commit financially to putting a quality product on the field, year-in, year-out, they've obviously failed in that effort.

    Pinto has been given very short-shrift since October- they brought in a journeyman guy who, for all intents and purposes, has been annointed by the interim boss for the starting job, and the boss has fallen all over himself in the wonders of what Fryer brings to the table.

    Gibson has been in the "afterthought" range of discussion for the #5 spot, at best, the Twins seem pretty intent on not having to give away any of their out-of-option, fringy SP arms, if they can help it.

    TR previously mentioned how much he likes Presley, Hicks didn't win any friends in managment by choosing not to play winter ball, his fate is in great doubt to start the season.

    And I sure hope Arcia wins his spot, he's the one guy in this mix that I think has the best shot to open the season.

  18. #74
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    Also, back to the original thread topic:

    What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

    Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.

  19. #75
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Are you really the arbiter of what is and isn't "worthwhile" on Twins Daily? How the billionaire runs his business is very important to many Twins fans and the option of more aggresive use of resources should always be open to debate. And after all, the owner made many Twins fans his "partners' in the building of the stadium, which in turn, tripled the value of "his"/"our" franchise- do Twins fans have a right of any say at all in that "partnership", or not? Your suggestion to "stop" can go both ways. You can simply "stop" reading the posts that bother you.
    Unless you own shares in the Twins you are not a partner. You are a consumer, if you don't like how the owner is running things, then stop going, stop watching. There is no solution any of you are offering other than "The Pohlads should spend more money!" "The Pohlads are cheap" it solves nothing and clutters up the discussion for everyone else trying to talk about baseball. Additionally, in an off-season where the Twins have been the most aggressive in the history of the franchise (and one of the more aggressive teams overall in baseball this off-season) this constant chatting about 52% comes off as nothing more then whining (I would use a different word) for the sake of whining.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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  21. #76
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Also, back to the original thread topic:

    What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

    Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.
    If there's a realistic chance that we can resign them long term, I say go for it. But a one year deal doesn't make sense for the same reasons it didn't with Santana--we're still rebuilding.

  22. #77
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    We agree, that the Twins have the money to sign Santana, Drew and Morales. Why they aren't doing so is what's up for debate- there's nothing "literal" about it. The club made it publicly known that they intended to commit financially to putting a quality product on the field, year-in, year-out, they've obviously failed in that effort.

    Pinto has been given very short-shrift since October- they brought in a journeyman guy who, for all intents and purposes, has been annointed by the interim boss for the starting job, and the boss has fallen all over himself in the wonders of what Fryer brings to the table.

    Gibson has been in the "afterthought" range of discussion for the #5 spot, at best, the Twins seem pretty intent on not having to give away any of their out-of-option, fringy SP arms, if they can help it.

    TR previously mentioned how much he likes Presley, Hicks didn't win any friends in managment by choosing not to play winter ball, his fate is in great doubt to start the season.

    And I sure hope Arcia wins his spot, he's the one guy in this mix that I think has the best shot to open the season.
    Gibson and Hicks fell completely on their faces last year in the majors, it would be ludicrous to hand either one a job without earning it in spring training. If they aren't ready at this point, is it recall beneficial to have them "learning in the bigs" hitting .190 and having a 5.60 ERA?

    The second Hicks/Gibson prove ready for another shot I am pretty positive they will get it.

    Pinto as mentioned is a SSS guy, and their are still questions on if he can stick defensively, he absolutely should have to earn the job.
    Last edited by SpiritofVodkaDave; 03-12-2014 at 02:23 PM.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  23. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.
    Also, by this logic, what does it mean that the Twins openly admit they made offers to Pierzynski and Salty? That suggests the Twins did NOT want to give the starting job to Pinto, and I don't know if that feeling changes just because they settled for an inferior acquisition in Suzuki.

  24. #79
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    If there's a realistic chance that we can resign them long term, I say go for it. But a one year deal doesn't make sense for the same reasons it didn't with Santana--we're still rebuilding.
    I would consider giving Drew a one year deal, but honestly, I don't see why he wouldn't just take the 3/30 or whatever we would offer instead.

    Morales...meh. Not worth it for one year IMO. We have some options that can play DH (Willingham, kubel, Pinto, Parmelee) we don't have any real internal SS options.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  25. #80
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Also, back to the original thread topic:
    Not a moment too soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

    Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.
    I would be more favorable towards offensive help, especially considering the options are Florimon and Kubel. I wouldn't even be too peeved about the draft picks.

    I had a dream last night that we signed Drew and Morales and traded Florimon to the Sox (as Bogearts insurance) for the second-round pick. Thus we only surrendered a third rounder and some money to upgrade those two spots in the order. I woke up with a smile on my face.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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