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Thread: And then there were two.

  1. #81
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Gibson could prove it all spring and still not get a shot. The Twins didn't do a great job building depth behind Gibson as well significantly ahead of him. Most of what they have is marginally better. It would've been nice to sort out some of those things in advance of March because Gibson may have a real hard time making this club before June or July barring utter catastrophe.

    I would hope Pinto and Hicks are here early and often, but that might not be true either. Their past decision-making has not always been easy to agree with on how they choose veteran vs. young player. It's a valid and fair criticism.

    In any case, I'm not interested in Drew for anything less or more than 2 years and probably the same for Morales.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 03-12-2014 at 02:32 PM.

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  3. #82
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    I was planning on contributing, but I think I'm going to have to be a moderator with this thread. Let's tone everything down. As well, just a reminder, but TD policy is pretty clear where moderation actions need to be discussed. There is a reporting function for posts and this is a really good place where it should be used.

    As well, if people are tired of the 52% thing, it's quite easy to simply not respond to it. Just a thought.

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  5. #83
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Trying to steer this back on topic a bit. Here's the real issue with signing Santana as I see it.

    1) He's not as consistent as you'd like
    2) He's going to cost a 2nd rounder
    3) We have 4 pitchers under contact this season, only one is not going to be under contract next year.
    4) We have promising prospects in Meyer and Gibson as well as some wild cards in Darnell, May, Deduno, Worley, and Diamond.
    5) This wasn't going to be a short term deal.

    Given that, I can see why it is that the Twins only wanted Santana on a bargain. There's a lot of risk here. Risk in losing a guy that turns out good. Risk in Santana turning back into a pumpkin. Risk in blocking prospects... etc. It's about risk. They didn't think Santana was worth the risk at the price he was asking. Neither did, I might add, the rest of MLB.

    There's a time and a place to spend that money. I don't think this was it.

  6. #84
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    As well, if people are tired of the 52% thing, it's quite easy to simply not respond to it. Just a thought.
    Ok fair enough, I'm just going to start bringing up long winded Mark DeRosa rants in every thread then.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  7. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I had a dream last night that we signed Drew and Morales and traded Florimon to the Sox (as Bogearts insurance) for the second-round pick. Thus we only surrendered a third rounder and some money to upgrade those two spots in the order. I woke up with a smile on my face.
    It must have been a dream, because I don't think you can trade draft picks (only those new extra "competitive balance picks" I think).

    I suppose you could have Drew officially re-sign with Boston, then they trade him for Florimon... but then the commissioner might get involved, and you wouldn't want Bud Selig appearing in your dreams.

  8. #86
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    At this point, it probably makes more sense to start looking at trade partners for later in the season.

  9. #87
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Ok fair enough, I'm just going to start bringing up long winded Mark DeRosa rants in every thread then.
    And how exactly is that different than now?

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  11. #88
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Great, hold them accountable then. Stop watching games, stop going to games if you want to "prove" your point.

    Stop getting otherwise worthwhile discussions off track every thread to those of us who are fans through thick and thin and don't get worked up on a daily basis how a billionaire owner tries to run his business.
    Respecfully, we both hold equal sway in the Twins front office (none). Almost every post on this site is an opinion directed at what we want the twins to do. What they should do, criticizing or praising what they did, etc.

    Wouldn't this whole site simply be the Pohlad's and Terry Ryan discussing roster moves if everyone did what you are suggesting?

  12. #89
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Do you have to rub it in, Ben? Gotta give your Bravos credit, once Medlen went down they immediately recognized the perfect fit Santana is for their rotation, and acted quickly and decisively to get it done- payroll and potential lost draft pick be damned.
    LOL! Not meant as a put down on the Twins' handling of the situation. I was just impressed that money seemingly was not an object for a team with such tight financial restrictions. I'm quite intrigued to see how Santana works in the NL, and especially in the NL East, which really has two lineups of any worry, and one of them is his own team.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  13. #90
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    It must have been a dream, because I don't think you can trade draft picks (only those new extra "competitive balance picks" I think).

    I suppose you could have Drew officially re-sign with Boston, then they trade him for Florimon... but then the commissioner might get involved, and you wouldn't want Bud Selig appearing in your dreams.
    That's more like a nightmare. But, in my dream, Boston got competitive balance picks because they're not the Yankees. Anywho, I suppose they could send us a PTBNL--last year's second round pick, after the June Draft.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  14. #91
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I agree and really love what they are doing over there. Tough break for Medlen, the second TJ is typically a horrible one for your career. A career 2.95 ERA over 512 IP. But they have had TJ out of Medlen x 2, Beachy, and Tommy Hansen was a can't miss prospect pre-TJ as well. And they still have a good young rotation and team. Lot of young studs on that team and they haven't been drafting in the top 5 or 10 consistently for a very long time.
    Thanks for the kind words on the Braves org. I rather enjoy hearing guys like Keith Law rip into their farm system as it currently sits because there are no impact guys at the top, yet they're the youngest team in the majors currently. One small thing that Hanson never had TJ. His stuff was all shoulder-related, which is a much scarier situation for any pitcher. I'm very pleased with the depth the minor league system has, and I think in a couple years guys like Victor Reyes and Jose Peraza could be elite level prospects, along the lines of where Freeman was.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  15. #92
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And how exactly is that different than now?
    The long winded part.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  16. #93
    Senior Member Double-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Lowball the guy, be happy if he accepts, don't look back if he doesn't. Take advantage of market inefficiencies, don't spend money just for the sake of spending money.
    Can you provide any examples of where lowball multi year free agent offers were made by the Twins and accepted by the free agent? Garza, E Santana, J Santana, Hunter, Guardado, Hawkins, Casey Blake, ect...... all turned down these types of offers from the Twins over the years. If they never succeed is it really an offer?

  17. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jharaldson View Post
    Can you provide any examples of where lowball multi year free agent offers were made by the Twins and accepted by the free agent? Garza, E Santana, J Santana, Hunter, Guardado, Hawkins, Casey Blake, ect...... all turned down these types of offers from the Twins over the years. If they never succeed is it really an offer?
    Willingham signed for less per year than other offers because the Twins offered the third year.
    From your list I would say Hunter was the only mistake so far.
    Last edited by old nurse; 03-12-2014 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #95
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    Given that the only FAs they've signed in the last few years were cheap, or Willingham and the pitchers this year, I'd guess not many FAs accepted low ball offers, if they were made.

    How is getting more money (due to the third year) a low ball offer? I ask that in all seriousness, I do not understand that argument.
    Lighten up Francis....

  19. #96
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I never was all that excited about E. Santana, though I never have been much worried about any of the current starters blocking prospects either. I suspect that when Gibson, Meyer and any of the other prospects show they are likely better than one or more of the current starters, a place will be available or made available for them. It maybe that the prospects will have to show they are ready at AAA a little longer than some will like, but I doubt if it will be all that long.

    The Twins haven't invested so much in Correia or Pelfrey that they wouldn't eat their salaries if they had to. Though it wouldn't likely come to that. To some degree that is true of Hughes as well. Though I doubt if the Twins would have gone 3 years and $8 mil per, if they thought he was going to end up a relief pitcher. Mostly I don't think that money is a big deal, the Twins are under budget, so if they end up eating money on any of their free agent acquisitions, I doubt if they will worry about it.

    I have no interest in Drew, I doubt if he stays healthy enough to play enough to justify what he would cost. Even if he is significantly better than Florimon, which I rather doubt he will be. If Florimon or Santana prove they aren't going to be the answer, there will be better free agent or trade options available than Drew. I would be more interested in Morales, but I hope that Willingham ends up mostly at DH, because Hicks, Arcia and maybe Parmelee are eating up time in the OF.

  20. #97
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    I'm not interested in Morales. This is a Twins team rife with defensively challenged players who can play first base and corner outfield but poorly. Drew, on the other hand, provides offensive skill at a defensive position that needs to be upgraded. If the Twins could sign Drew and swing a trade with Chicago for De Aza (without giving up the farm) as well I would be a happy camper as both would be improvements over current players and provide depth for next year if Santana and Buxton aren't ready.

  21. #98
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    Damn, I seem to have missed the fun! My schizophrenic side needs to let it out:

    Personality A: "What a good bargain."

    Personality B: "But 52%"

    Personality A: "Pfft, future flexibility."

    Personality B: "Millions of dollars available, Billionaires."

    Personality A: "Not your company."

    Personality C: *facepalm* "Again?" "Mods!!!"

    Great, now I have a Mexican Standoff in my head and I'm afraid I'm going to lose.

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  23. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Willingham signed for less per year than other offers because the Twins offered the third year.
    From your list I would say Hunter was the only mistake so far.
    Willingham's agent did state he accepted less money here, but never stated the amount which could mean anything from several million a year, a fourth year option buyout, or an extra $100,000 in incentives. Given we don't know what is going on there we can look at what he was projected to get and compare.

    Projected 3 yr/$24 million
    http://www.twinkietown.com/2011/12/1...ign-with-twins
    Actual 3 yr/$21 million

    Compare this to E Santana
    Projected 5 yrs/$75 million
    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/1...n-santana.html
    Twins Offer 3 yrs/$33 million

    Same years, $1 million less a year does not compare to 2 years less, $4 million less a year.
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 03-12-2014 at 09:23 PM. Reason: fixed some math for ya

  24. #100
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    It seems we had an unsupervised food fight take place. The food is stuck to the walls of this thread so I'm gonna lock it down.

    Payroll is clearly a divisive issue.

    I believe payroll discussion is an unavoidable debate in consideration of the strong feelings on both sides.

    We are asking that it doesn't invade every thread. It has in the past and the moderation crew is trying to prevent the payroll debate from resembling Asian Carp in every waterway.

    This topic was about the two remaining free agents... Personally... I have no interest in Drew but I wouldn't mind Morales. That's my on-topic thought about it.

    Please... In the future... Refrain from dragging payroll into topics... Unless the topic is about payroll.

    And yes... I see how a free agent discussion can lead to a payroll discussion. If we try hard enough... Almost every topic can turn into a payroll discussion. We are asking that it doesn't.

    Go ahead and start a 52 percent thread and go at it. Just do it respectfully and the discussion will be fine. Just keep it out of the discussion about the return of Jason Kubel.

    Also feel free to restart a "Drew and Morales... Should we get them thread"?

    Now I shall lock this one up. The lasagna is falling off the ceiling.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 03-12-2014 at 09:55 PM.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

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