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Thread: Alex Meyer and a question of say-so w/ ST roster decisions

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    Alex Meyer and a question of say-so w/ ST roster decisions

    In another thread, I questioned why 2 of the 3 brightest lites for the near-term hopes of turning this franchse around, Meyer and Buxton, were shipped out so early after the Camp opened. It made me wonder out loud about the decision-making process and who is looking for what? why?...and when?

    Now we have this quote from Berardino's article, regarding using some of the up-and-coming starters in relief roles, as other teams are doing more frequently:

    “Let them get confidence, stretch them out as best you can and (eventually) stick them in the rotation,” Gardenhire said. “There’s a big, tall 6-foot-7, 6-foot-8 guy that I might have wanted to have taken a shot with that this year.”
    He was talking about 6-9 Alex Meyer and his high-90s fastball. Meyer was shipped back to Triple-A on March 9 in the first round of cuts.
    “He got ramrodded out of here pretty quick before I had the say-so,” Gardenhire said. “I wouldn’t mind doing that with him at all. I think that would be fun. I don’t give a (flip) if they hit him. Just watching him come out there …”
    It begs the questions- When exactly does Gardy get the say-so? Was it last Sunday's second round of cuts? Or does it not happen until the final cut to 25?
    http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/20...twins-bullpen/

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I don't see the real upside in starting Meyer out in the majors this year.
    First off: There is zero reason to start his clock that quickly.
    Second: He needs some time in the minors to refine his pitches.

    Gardy shouldn't get any say-so, that isn't his job. Gardy's job is to win every game he can this year, Ryan's job is to ensure the Twins are good in the near and long term future.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Gardy talks with his coaches, and then Gardy talks to the front office and makes his cases, but at the end of the day, it's Rob Antony's (and Terry Ryan's) decision. The business side of things has to be considered in roster decisions, what's best long term for a player or the team, those kinds of things have to play a part in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Gardy talks with his coaches, and then Gardy talks to the front office and makes his cases, but at the end of the day, it's Rob Antony's (and Terry Ryan's) decision. The business side of things has to be considered in roster decisions, what's best long term for a player or the team, those kinds of things have to play a part in the process.
    Is it at all interesting how Gardy aired the "dirty laundry" side of ST personnel decision-making regarding Gibson and especially, Meyer? I never before heard that a manager gets "say-so" at any point in Spring Training. And kind of interesting too, that he's already pining for missing the opportunity for a longer look at Meyer than just one week? Or did he let out the hint that there's a scenario envisioned where Meyer might come up in a relief capacity at some point (perhaps just after the Arb cutoff date?) and BEFORE, a starting spot actually opens up?
    Last edited by jokin; 03-18-2014 at 07:35 PM.

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    This isn't the first time Gardy has talked about ST roster decisions, I think probably happens most years. Reusse had an article about it when Bill Smith was the GM - Gardy and Smith disagreed on 3 roster spots and Smith "won" on two and gave Gardy something. I can't remember the players. In any event, I don't think it's airing dirty laundry but rather the manager just honestly answering the question.

    As to the other points - Gardy's actually used the bullpen to starter route before with Santana and Liriano and, if Meyer's on an innings limit, it makes sense to do it sometime this year with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    This isn't the first time Gardy has talked about ST roster decisions, I think probably happens most years. Reusse had an article about it when Bill Smith was the GM - Gardy and Smith disagreed on 3 roster spots and Smith "won" on two and gave Gardy something. I can't remember the players. In any event, I don't think it's airing dirty laundry but rather the manager just honestly answering the question.

    As to the other points - Gardy's actually used the bullpen to starter route before with Santana and Liriano and, if Meyer's on an innings limit, it makes sense to do it sometime this year with him.
    I only used "dirty laundry" on a sparing basis in particular response to Gardy's rather strong choice of words: “He got ramrodded out of here pretty quick...before I....."

    I am in full agreement on Meyer. If he's performing as expected in Roc., get him up here in a relief role right after his arb date if a starting spot has not yet materialized. On an innings limit, I'd prefer as many of them be MLB ones as possible. Gibson too. It sounds like a mental thing as much as physical for Gibson, not much left to prove for him in Rochester (and he isn't getting any younger).

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    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    "There is an increasing sense of urgency in Minnesota with ticket sales lagging, and the Twins will be aggressive with roster changes if need be in the early going, reports ESPN.com's Buster Olney (Insider piece)." My source is http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/minnes...ins/index.html
    since I don't spring for insider, but is this a purposeful leak to keep fans interested even though their favorite prospects are being sent down early?

    Also, I wonder if Gardy got more sway with TR than with Antony.

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    I wouldn't be opposed to giving Meyer a few low-stakes appearances out of the pen before he makes his first start. I wouldn't let him age in the pen for half a season though, which is what would have happened, and is where I disagree. Also, at this point it's a horrible idea to send Gibson to the pen.

    Honestly it sounds like Gardy is just reacting to things he heard watching the Cardinals in the postseason last year (Cardinals young guys (and I mean YOUNG) Lance Lynn, Wacha, Kelly, Shelby Miller having all began their careers in relief for a short time). Who the heck knows anymore what the secret is to developing pitching-- the Twins brain trust is already on record now disagreeing on how to best develop Alex Meyer (that's the skeptical take, anyway--but needs to be said).

    I am glad Gardy at least appears to be lobbying for the young guys, which I will back him 100% on.

    Great post, Jokin, thanks a lot,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    "There is an increasing sense of urgency in Minnesota with ticket sales lagging, and the Twins will be aggressive with roster changes if need be in the early going, reports ESPN.com's Buster Olney (Insider piece)." My source is http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/minnes...ins/index.html
    since I don't spring for insider, but is this a purposeful leak to keep fans interested even though their favorite prospects are being sent down early?

    Also, I wonder if Gardy got more sway with TR than with Antony.
    Nice catch and interesting thought. It would have been nice if the Vikings had been aggressive with replacing Ponder earlier. We'll see if that approach works in baseball or if that's what they're planning to do.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    A couple things:

    These guys (esp. Buxton) did not really perform well this Spring while with the Twins. Buxton was a step above Bartlett with the stick and had a couple of mishaps on the field.

    Also, Meyer at some point needed to be stretched for the season. If he was sticking around to pitch an inning at a time as Gardenhire suggested, that would have not happened.

    Plus, I would not trust that Gardenhire is speaking the truth there...
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  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I only used "dirty laundry" on a sparing basis in particular response to Gardy's rather strong choice of words: “He got ramrodded out of here pretty quick...before I....."
    I had exactly the same reaction. But my first instinct was that it might be a bit of a misquote. From the rest of the quote, I can imagine Gardy joking around with Berardino about how mcuh he likes seeing Meyer pitch regardless of the situation, and then saying something like "but he got ramrodded out of here pretty quick and I didn't have the say-so."

    Or maybe the quote is exactly right, but it needs to be taken in the context that Gardy never gets, and doesn't expect, a say-so, and so he's kidding around a tad when he said "before i got the say-so."

    Those guys all work together pretty well. While I'm sure there are player decisions that they don't all agree on, they've been very good about providing a reasonalby united front, and I doubt that would change now.

    I would answer your last question on the original post by saying that I don't think gardy ever gets any say so on who's on the team. I'm sure he gets input, but I can see a possiblity that Ryan and Antony had already agreed that neither of those two guys was going to make the team out of ST, but that in past years Ryan might have done a courtesy check with Gardy and Antony maybe didn't realize that was typical and just went ahead and reassigned according to the original plan without making the call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimv2 View Post
    I had exactly the same reaction. But my first instinct was that it might be a bit of a misquote. From the rest of the quote, I can imagine Gardy joking around with Berardino about how mcuh he likes seeing Meyer pitch regardless of the situation, and then saying something like "but he got ramrodded out of here pretty quick and I didn't have the say-so."

    Or maybe the quote is exactly right, but it needs to be taken in the context that Gardy never gets, and doesn't expect, a say-so, and so he's kidding around a tad when he said "before i got the say-so."

    Those guys all work together pretty well. While I'm sure there are player decisions that they don't all agree on, they've been very good about providing a reasonalby united front, and I doubt that would change now.

    I would answer your last question on the original post by saying that I don't think gardy ever gets any say so on who's on the team. I'm sure he gets input, but I can see a possiblity that Ryan and Antony had already agreed that neither of those two guys was going to make the team out of ST, but that in past years Ryan might have done a courtesy check with Gardy and Antony maybe didn't realize that was typical and just went ahead and reassigned according to the original plan without making the call.
    Good post. Gardy's usually closer to the vest, verbally speaking. And TR has taken all the blame for failing to get Gardy the pitching he needs to be respectable the last 2 years, so I was wondering if that might have granted him some leeway "say-so" that he hasn't had in the past. But great point, the familiarity factor with Antony is probably still a work in progress- and Gardy feels comfortable enough with his new 2-year contract to speak his mind a little bit. It was certainly a good tease for us as fans and sets himself up for more "negotiating" when we get to crunch time next week.

    I also want to make it clear, I wasn't necessarily saying that Meyer and Buxton should have gone North on opening day, I have merely been questioning since the move on March 8, how unprecedentedly quickly that the Twins moved their top 2 prospects out of the major league camp. Hicks was out until last Wednesday, plus there were split squad games. Presumably both Buxton and Meyer would benefit from the best coaching and competition.- at least another 10 days or so before being moved down to the minor league camp. And as far as Meyer getting stretched out, he could have pitched in a simulated situation in conjunction with say, three more MLB 2-inning stints, or combined reps with both the major and minor league games when they played games simultaneously.

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    The Royals name their top pitching prospect, 22 year old Yordano Ventura, the fifth starter.

    The Twins send out their 24 year old prospect early in spring training. They have Mike Pelfrey and Kevin Correia filling the spots.

    The Royals handed over full time catching duties to Perez at 22 after debuting at 21.

    The Twins sign journeyman Suzuki and make him starter before camp because 8 years of developing Pinto at catcher may not be enough.

    Hosmer was a regular out of camp at 21. Would Sano have been this year? Buxton next?

    Are the Royals ruining their best prospects by letting them adjust and struggle in the majors? It is a new direction for them. They had a strong class of prospects and chose to play them young. Time will tell as the core hits 25-29 in a year or two.

    It is a direction the a Twins might consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    The Royals name their top pitching prospect, 22 year old Yordano Ventura, the fifth starter.

    The Twins send out their 24 year old prospect early in spring training. They have Mike Pelfrey and Kevin Correia filling the spots.

    The Royals handed over full time catching duties to Perez at 22 after debuting at 21.

    The Twins sign journeyman Suzuki and make him starter before camp because 8 years of developing Pinto at catcher may not be enough.

    Hosmer was a regular out of camp at 21. Would Sano have been this year? Buxton next?

    Are the Royals ruining their best prospects by letting them adjust and struggle in the majors? It is a new direction for them. They had a strong class of prospects and chose to play them young. Time will tell as the core hits 25-29 in a year or two.

    It is a direction the a Twins might consider.
    Might not Perez be a better prospect at catching than Pinto? Perhaps if you are complaining of the slow development of Pinto you could point out how the Twins have held him back. Each player develops differently.
    IIRC Mauer was up through the system quickly. Did Mauer belong in the bigs at age 19?
    Hosmer was a high pick. Much different than Pinto.
    Last edited by old nurse; 03-18-2014 at 11:14 PM.

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    Saying the Twins should go the Royals route really isn't fair. How have the Royals prospects progressed? I would dare say if the players mentioned in the above post dont preform as expected they are optioned or the Royals cut bait with them.And then what will they have gainedby trading Myers and Ordozzi? They will have wasted an opportunity by being impatient. Granted their catcher has done well...but i seem to recall the twins calling up a catcher at that age as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Presumably both Buxton and Meyer would benefit from the best coaching and competition.- at least another 10 days or so before being moved down to the minor league camp. And as far as Meyer getting stretched out, he could have pitched in a simulated situation in conjunction with say, three more MLB 2-inning stints, or combined reps with both the major and minor league games when they played games simultaneously.
    An organization should think that all of the coaches are the best at any level or they should not have been hired.
    Your approach to stretching out a pitcher is best described as novel. There is a reason players play in game situations versus going down to spring training and work on simulations. There is a reason for rehab starts versus simulations after they have done a couple simulations..
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 03-19-2014 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Unnecessary parting shot

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    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pierre75275 View Post
    Saying the Twins should go the Royals route really isn't fair. How have the Royals prospects progressed? I would dare say if the players mentioned in the above post dont preform as expected they are optioned or the Royals cut bait with them.And then what will they have gainedby trading Myers and Ordozzi? They will have wasted an opportunity by being impatient. Granted their catcher has done well...but i seem to recall the twins calling up a catcher at that age as well
    Yup! I wouldn't emulate anything the Royals have done...do they have young talent? Sure, but they are far from a model franchise.. The Royals are also a cautionary tale of putting too many eggs in the "hey all of our prospects will pan out!" basket.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    The Royals name their top pitching prospect, 22 year old Yordano Ventura, the fifth starter.

    The Twins send out their 24 year old prospect early in spring training. They have Mike Pelfrey and Kevin Correia filling the spots.

    The Royals handed over full time catching duties to Perez at 22 after debuting at 21.

    The Twins sign journeyman Suzuki and make him starter before camp because 8 years of developing Pinto at catcher may not be enough.

    Hosmer was a regular out of camp at 21. Would Sano have been this year? Buxton next?

    Are the Royals ruining their best prospects by letting them adjust and struggle in the majors? It is a new direction for them. They had a strong class of prospects and chose to play them young. Time will tell as the core hits 25-29 in a year or two.

    It is a direction the a Twins might consider.
    First of, Ventura isn't the Royals top pitching prospect. That's Kyle Zimmer who they are putting restrictions on this year at AA. (http://www.baseballamerica.com/minor...ons-on-zimmer/). But it's also not really a fair comparison. Ventura is a finished product at this point. He threw over 150 innings in the upper minors and majors last year. Meyer missed two months b/c of a shoulder injury and threw about 100 over AA and the AFL. The Royals are also in a position where they are trying to win this year whereas the Twins don't really need to rush Meyer's arbitration clock early.

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    True, the Twins are not trying to win this year, that is clear.

    Who, exactly, will they be "aggressive in making roster changes" with? Who in AAA is even "ready" to come up? Hicks and Pinto? It looks like Escobar might be up. They aren't going to bring up Buxton "early".
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    True, the Twins are not trying to win this year, that is clear.

    Who, exactly, will they be "aggressive in making roster changes" with? Who in AAA is even "ready" to come up? Hicks and Pinto? It looks like Escobar might be up. They aren't going to bring up Buxton "early".
    The evidence for their recent past "aggresiveness" is there to see. Look for the guys who are playing "consistently" in AAA. Instead of Walters, Albers and DeVries, think Kris Johnson, Sean Gilmartin and Brooks Raley. And instead of Dinkleman, Bernier and Clete Thomas, think Jermaine Mitchell, Wilkin Ramirez, Brandon Waring and.... er, Bernier.

    But seriously...if they are punting once again....from a business-side outlook, what's the point in early call-ups to Meyer, Gibson, May, Pinto, Buxton, et al???- who they think they can still save significant payroll money on by delaying their service time-clocks. Until they change their viewpoint in this regard, I fear that 2014 is looking like 2011-13 Redux. (And I don't see how they can keep Hicks off the opening day roster, but then again, Jason Bartlett made the spectacular catch in CF and got a hit today, so Gardy just may have found his back-up OFer after all.)

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