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Thread: Berardino: Tough Talk from Rob Antony

  1. #21
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    I think Barrerio was spot on regarding this today.
    It's a little phony to assemble a roster full of poor to mediocre players, and then complain when they play poorly or just average.
    What did you expect when you put together this roster? Did you expect mediocre players to suddenly be someone they are not?
    Here's an idea, Mr. Antony, go out and spend some of that Target Field money (don't tell me about Nolasco and Hughes, all they did was spend the money that came off the books, nothing more) and put some better players on the field.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Brad Swanson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKGuy View Post
    Who's stepped up? Deduno, Gibson, Pinto and Colabello, they have earned their spots
    Exactly, and I'd guess two or maybe three of those guys will be in Rochester on March 31, meaning the whole "stepping up" conversation is a load.

    Also, ripping Hicks is just insane to me. He was hitting .269/.269/.462 when the comments were made. He went out and "won the job" last year and what good was that.

    For all the ripping of mediocre and washed up players (Hicks being the only guy he ripped who has any shred of true, current MLB talent), where's the vitriol toward Josh Willingham and his .080 batting average or Trevor Plouffe's 9 strikeouts in 31 at-bats? Is it ok for those guys to suck because they've already been handed jobs? Deibinson Romero has outplayed Plouffe this Spring, has he stepped up and won the third base job?

    I also thought it was convenient that he didn't say anything good about Gibson ("he's going today" - hey that's true!) and he found a way to rip Escobar. That makes it a lot easier to send Gibson to AAA and to keep Pedro Florimon and his inevitable sub-.200 Spring Training batting average in the lineup. If only Gibson and Escobar had just stepped up and won the jobs by outplaying their competition!

    I almost never get this fired up about sports, but his comments feel very disingenuous to me.
    Last edited by Brad Swanson; 03-19-2014 at 07:57 PM. Reason: still fired up
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  5. #23
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    What did you expect when you put together this roster? Did you expect mediocre players to suddenly be someone they are not?
    Here's an idea, Mr. Antony, go out and spend some of that Target Field money.
    That was the most irritating thing about the article, but it was also disappointing to see that Gardenhire is apparently only now waking up to the fact that the offense will almost certainly be bad this year.

    A big chunk of that hole was dug when the team exchanged the best offensive catcher in baseball with one of the worst, but there were plenty of other signs that runs would be in short supply this year. Arcia and Hicks struggled to make contact last year. Plouffe, Florimon, and Parm apparently just can't hit much. And if the Twins really are planning on getting 140+ games in left from Willi, then there's very little evidence in the team's roadmap for 2014 that they know the DH position exists.

    The Twins moved forward on the rotation this year, and that was what pretty much everyone felt was the highest priority. But they resigned themselves to the waiting game and offensive mediocrity at best in 2014 when they made no greater effort to improve the offense than auditioning the mummified remains of the Jasons.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 03-19-2014 at 07:52 PM.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    That was the most irritating thing about the article, but it was also disappointing to see that Gardenhire is apparently only now waking up to the fact that the offense will almost certainly be bad this year.

    A big chunk of that hole was dug when the team exchanged the best offensive catcher in baseball with one of the worst, but there were plenty of other signs that runs would be in short supply this year. Arcia and Hicks struggled to make contact last year. Plouffe, Florimon, and Parm apparently just can't hit much. And if the Twins really are planning on getting 140+ games in left from Willi, then there's very little evidence in the team's roadmap for 2014 that they know the DH position exists.

    The Twins moved forward on the rotation this year, and that was what pretty much everyone felt was the highest priority. But they resigned themselves to the waiting game and offensive mediocrity at best in 2014 when they made no greater effort to improve the offense than auditioning the mummified remains of the Jasons.
    Auditioning mummies? I tend to demur with your conclusion. I have a sneaking suspicion both Jason's are about to be re-animated, and that they already have their chosen crypts in place, stenciled in with their names and numbers in the Target Field Locker Room (and Mausoleum).

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    I think Barrerio was spot on regarding this today.
    It's a little phony to assemble a roster full of poor to mediocre players, and then complain when they play poorly or just average.
    What did you expect when you put together this roster? Did you expect mediocre players to suddenly be someone they are not?
    Here's an idea, Mr. Antony, go out and spend some of that Target Field money (don't tell me about Nolasco and Hughes, all they did was spend the money that came off the books, nothing more) and put some better players on the field.
    amen.
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #26
    If they would have spent every penny of the 52% that people cry about constantly they still would not be a 500 team. Man, it gets tiring to hear this constant squaking about them not spending money. Why don't the other rebilding teams spend every available dollar. Is there ownership cheap and their FO incompetent?

    A win in free agency cost around $7M. So, someone is going to have to explain to me how we pick-up 30 wins through free agent spending.

  10. #27
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    A win in free agency cost around $7M. So, someone is going to have to explain to me how we pick-up 30 wins through free agent spending.
    I would start by stating that since I put little stock in WAR, I don't necessarily believe "a win in free agency costs around $7M" just because some people throw that number around.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    If they would have spent every penny of the 52% that people cry about constantly they still would not be a 500 team. Man, it gets tiring to hear this constant squaking about them not spending money. Why don't the other rebilding teams spend every available dollar. Is there ownership cheap and their FO incompetent?

    A win in free agency cost around $7M. So, someone is going to have to explain to me how we pick-up 30 wins through free agent spending.
    A) I never claimed that spending the money would equate to a contending team. But in that case dont criticize the players for being EXACTLY who they are. I'm just saying don't fill the stadium full of trash then complain about the smell.

    B) Do the other "rebuilding teams" go out and sign guys like Kevin Correia and Mike Pelfrey to multi year deals? Do they fill out their roster with guys like Jason Bartlett and Jason Kubel?
    For all this talk about rebuilding, there is a chance we start the season with not a single rookie/2nd year guy on the team. Gibson, Hicks, Pinto, Tonkin could all easily join Meyer, Buxton, Santana, et al in the minors.
    Tell me what other "rebuilding" team is looking at possibly starting the season with no rookie or 2nd year players on their 25 man roster?
    You can talk all you want about rebuilding, but looking at their actions I don't see much rebuilding, I just see a perennial bad team.
    Players can only learn so much in the minors.

  13. #29
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Actually, yes. Teams bring in veterans all the time in an attempt to make sure young players are ready when called up. I don't get the Pelfrey signing, but it's not the end of the world. Correia was just fine. Nolasco and Hughes are good signings.

    Who cares what Willingham or Mauer or Plouffe or Dozier are hitting this spring. Antony is talking about guys who know they're in a position battle.

    Antony absolutely should be the heir-apparent to the GM job. He's been in the organization and worked his way up. He's been in the upper front office levels for probably a dozen years. He's absolutely ready to take over.

    Bartlett's been out for almost two years, so I think he's got a lot of rust, but he's done it before in the big leagues and could handle being a 2nd utility infielder. Kubel was terrific just two seasons ago and was not healthy last year. He hasn't forgotten how to hit. He's just 31.

    I don't have a huge problem with what Antony said. He'd like to see someone step forward and win a job. Nothing wrong with that.

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  15. #30
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    Antony called out the players who had a chance to seize a job and have not done so. That has been terribly obvious so big whoop that Antony called them out.
    Bartlet and Kubel are on minor league contracts. Why they were not called out is becuase they are not on the major league roster. Antony's comments would indicate the Jasons might have to produce in Rochester before being added to the roster.
    These players have a chance to win a job. It would be nice if there was no doubt they belong.
    Last edited by The Wise One; 03-19-2014 at 09:20 PM.

  16. #31
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I don't think it's that bad of a roster If they take the best players regardless of Spring Training results. Antony whines about how no one has made the decision easy for him, but the decisions should be easy. The following players are clearly the best players for the open positions: Hicks, Deduno, Gibson, Pinto. Nothing that has happened in Spring Training has invalidated that. In fact, Spring Training has validated it. What Does Antony want? 4- homer games? No hitters? Is he even watching the action?
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  18. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Auditioning mummies? I tend to demur with your conclusion. I have a sneaking suspicion both Jason's are about to be re-animated, and that they already have their chosen crypts in place, stenciled in with their names and numbers in the Target Field Locker Room (and Mausoleum).
    WTH, a little carried away on the metaphor there?

    Antony's comments on Kubel were a little ominous: "ok he's had some moments, but you have to pay attention to the way things are playing out." Ominous for Kubel, that is. We're happy for Kubel but he's kind of redundant here, to say the least.

    But I can see a scenario where Bartlett makes the club. Reports are that he's playing well. If Florimon starts in AAA, or someone turns up injured, or maybe Bartlett just puts it together and gets productive this final week. It sounds snarky to praise a guy who's 1-for-Spring Training but I could get on board with Bartlett maybe. Or, to stay with the metaphor: don't put the final nail in his coffin just yet.

  19. #33
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Moderator's note: The Berardino article, referenced to start this thread, is a discussion with the front office about the state of competition for spots on the 25-man roster. It's easy to let this morph into other discussions about the front office. Please don't. Practically any topic in some way bears on the front office or the past off-season, but that doesn't make such side discussions pertinent.

    We had this happen only a week ago, and one of the moderators posted this summary:

    http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php...e-two-addendum

    Please heed it. This thread is about the current state of spring training competitions for jobs, and there should be plenty to talk about. If you want to discuss something else, even if related, start a new thread.

  20. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    .I don't have a huge problem with what Antony said. He'd like to see someone step forward and win a job. Nothing wrong with that.
    Seth,

    I have to disagree. There is an old saying ... Praise in public and criticize in private. Mr. Anthony is probably a very talented guy. I don't know nearly enough about him to offer an opinion as to if he should succeed Mr. Ryan. However, I do know that you have to know how to deliver a message without tearing down individuals if you are going to be an effective leader. He could have simply said "we have not had players step-up as we had hoped". What was to be gained by flogging specific players. You would think Ozzie Guillen's example would have taught the rest of league to avoid this behavior.

  21. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I would start by stating that since I put little stock in WAR, I don't necessarily believe "a win in free agency costs around $7M" just because some people throw that number around.
    Here, here! Yeah, the math doesn't really add up that it "really" costs you $210M/YR in acquisitions to pick up only 30 wins. And putting all of your eggs in an Albert Pujols basket is certainly not the way to go. Improvement at multiple positions, a little bit at some and a lot at a few others, now you're at least competitive- and then let the chips fall where they may. Only 85 wins won the AL West back in 1987- and then series wins over Detroit and St Louis . Yes, the wheels would have to fall off the cart in Detroit and KC to get there, but none of this is unprecedented. The Twins key offseason acquisitions after 1986 (71 wins)? Jeff Reardon, Juan Berenger and Ron Gardenhire.

    And 85-90 Wins in 2014 was at least within the outside realm of possibility with just a couple additional major league bats in the lineup and one more elite SP- many of us have shown that these moves could have been accomplished for right around the 2011 payroll number, plus throw in some impact help from some current sophs and a rookie prospect or two, stranger things have happened. The current rotation, sans Correia, plus a Garza, plus an improved Gibson, plus 2nd half impact from Meyer, is at least an even bet to cut the ERA by a full run. And adding 2 elite bats plus some positive regression from existing players and some help from the youngsters and newbies makes it a fair bet to increase runs scored by at least .5 runs/game.

    So all in all, that's about 1/7th the net additional cost- compared to the proposed $210M for 30 "wins"- to at least make a decent attempt to get close to a 20 win improvement.

  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    A) I never claimed that spending the money would equate to a contending team. But in that case dont criticize the players for being EXACTLY who they are. I'm just saying don't fill the stadium full of trash then complain about the smell.

    B) Do the other "rebuilding teams" go out and sign guys like Kevin Correia and Mike Pelfrey to multi year deals? Do they fill out their roster with guys like Jason Bartlett and Jason Kubel?
    For all this talk about rebuilding, there is a chance we start the season with not a single rookie/2nd year guy on the team. Gibson, Hicks, Pinto, Tonkin could all easily join Meyer, Buxton, Santana, et al in the minors.
    Tell me what other "rebuilding" team is looking at possibly starting the season with no rookie or 2nd year players on their 25 man roster?
    You can talk all you want about rebuilding, but looking at their actions I don't see much rebuilding, I just see a perennial bad team.
    Players can only learn so much in the minors.
    Welcome back, Mr Brooks. It seems like more voices like yours are needed, as the TD community, as well as the club itself, are uncomfortably "caught" at the proverbial road sign:

    Last edited by jokin; 03-19-2014 at 11:29 PM.

  23. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Is this "tough talk" or simple irresponsible talk?

    I laugh at the notion that Hicks hasn't separated himself from Presley. Just because neither has been outstanding doesn't mean that there isn't a difference. Good lord. I can't believe an assistant GM talks like this and still has his job.

  24. #38
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    I will say this about Terry Ryan: he takes responsibility for the product on the field. I have never heard him blame players by name like this before. Unbelievable. I hope this isn't our GM in the waiting.
    Exactly. These comments are inexcusable.

  25. #39
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    Exactly, and I'd guess two or maybe three of those guys will be in Rochester on March 31, meaning the whole "stepping up" conversation is a load.

    Also, ripping Hicks is just insane to me. He was hitting .269/.269/.462 when the comments were made. He went out and "won the job" last year and what good was that.

    For all the ripping of mediocre and washed up players (Hicks being the only guy he ripped who has any shred of true, current MLB talent), where's the vitriol toward Josh Willingham and his .080 batting average or Trevor Plouffe's 9 strikeouts in 31 at-bats? Is it ok for those guys to suck because they've already been handed jobs? Deibinson Romero has outplayed Plouffe this Spring, has he stepped up and won the third base job?

    I also thought it was convenient that he didn't say anything good about Gibson ("he's going today" - hey that's true!) and he found a way to rip Escobar. That makes it a lot easier to send Gibson to AAA and to keep Pedro Florimon and his inevitable sub-.200 Spring Training batting average in the lineup. If only Gibson and Escobar had just stepped up and won the jobs by outplaying their competition!

    I almost never get this fired up about sports, but his comments feel very disingenuous to me.
    You are right to be angry. I cannot believe Antony statement. Other than showing complete ignorance about certain players' performances, it also is very inappropriate.

  26. #40
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Here, here! Yeah, the math doesn't really add up that it "really" costs you $210M/YR in acquisitions to pick up only 30 wins. And putting all of your eggs in an Albert Pujols basket is certainly not the way to go. Improvement at multiple positions, a little bit at some and a lot at a few others, now you're at least competitive- and then let the chips fall where they may. Only 85 wins won the AL West back in 1987- and then series wins over Detroit and St Louis . Yes, the wheels would have to fall off the cart in Detroit and KC to get there, but none of this is unprecedented. The Twins key offseason acquisitions after 1986 (71 wins)? Jeff Reardon, Juan Berenger and Ron Gardenhire.

    And 85-90 Wins in 2014 was at least within the outside realm of possibility with just a couple additional major league bats in the lineup and one more elite SP- many of us have shown that these moves could have been accomplished for right around the 2011 payroll number, plus throw in some impact help from some current sophs and a rookie prospect or two, stranger things have happened. The current rotation, sans Correia, plus a Garza, plus an improved Gibson, plus 2nd half impact from Meyer, is at least an even bet to cut the ERA by a full run. And adding 2 elite bats plus some positive regression from existing players and some help from the youngsters and newbies makes it a fair bet to increase runs scored by at least .5 runs/game.

    So all in all, that's about 1/7th the net additional cost- compared to the proposed $210M for 30 "wins"- to at least make a decent attempt to get close to a 20 win improvement.
    WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement. That figure starts in the mid 50s in terms of wins. Spend from there.

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