Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 73

Thread: Time for Accountability

  1. #21
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
    Posts
    723
    Like
    121
    Liked 165 Times in 95 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Joe, I think some of us have heard the "blame the player" explanation a few too many times to just keep swallowing it whole. At some point you would broaden the investigation, right?
    Yes, absolutely. I am all for accountability for everyone, not just the players when appropriate. However, I do not believe Anderson was at fault for Worley's performance the past year and this spring. There's not a lot a pitching coach can do when a guy throws perfect in warmup and 30 minutes later he's serving up junk in the game. Tell him what and show him how, but in the end he must do it himself.

    Another point I'd like to make about accountability on this team is that we often only see the negative situations that arise. What if Correia and/or Pelfrey would have been just as bad as Vance without Anderson's guidance? What if getting .250 out of Plouffe is actually a win? We already know Dozier credits Bruno with turning his swing arouhd. Things like that that we just take as a natural course might very well indicate good leadership. Isn't it possible that the field leadership is actually getting great results with our current group of guys, and likely that many of the failures we've been seeing are a product of a poorer talent level than we'd prefer?

  2. These 2 users like Joe A. Preusser's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    birdwatcher (03-26-2014), Hosken Bombo Disco (03-26-2014)

  3. #22
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,719
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 566 Times in 370 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Meh, at the end of the day the Twins traded a 4th OF with no bat, what did you expect in return? May was always the center piece of that return as a high upside (yet high risk) arm, Worley was just a throw in who also turned out to be a high risk/high reward guy due to the injury.

    If May comes even within a sniff of his ceiling this trade ends up being a win for the Twins. If he doesn't its a very minor loss as Hicks/Buxton are significantly better CF players and will both have better careers.
    Except he isn't a 4th OF....at age 24, while Hicks was putting up negative WAR at that age, he put up 3 WAR. Last year, while injured, he put up .9 WAR in only 88 games. If he puts up 2 WAR as a starting CF, that puts him around league Median (if you count all the CF teams, not just those that qualify, since about 1/3 of the teams don't even have a CF that qualifies as a hitter).

    All that aside, I do agree, the accountability seems low. They fired two old bench type coaches, but the real leaders of the team are still here. You don't lose 90+ games for 3-5 years in a row by being good at your job......players, coaches, front office.
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #23
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
    Posts
    426
    Like
    219
    Liked 219 Times in 94 Posts
    Blog Entries
    23
    This is a response to the title of the forum, on Accountability--not so much the Worley situation. In a broader sense the Twins are experiencing an accountability gap whenever someone chooses not to pay for a ticket and walk through Gates 3, 6, 14, 29 & 34 at Target Field.

    Tyler Mason, writing for Fox Sports, interviewed Dave St. Peter regarding the upcoming Twins Opener. The focus of the article was on the weather, not the product on the field. Hmmm. If the Twins had a winning season last year, were in a pennant race, or were lighting fires under "fair weather" fans, they would sell out every game.

    Not now. No chance. That's accountability.

    Here's a snippet from the article:

    Three straight 90-loss seasons have dampened the spirits of some Twins fans, as is evidenced by the ticket sales for next month's home opener. St. Peter said the team still has between 4,000 to 5,000 tickets to sell for that first home game. "We've got some work to do," he added. "I don't think the cold weather has helped us to kind of get people thinking baseball." http://msn.foxsports.com/north/story...-opener-032414

    There's more work to do than just checking weather forecasts and shoveling snow off the field, Mr. St. Peter.

  5. These 3 users like Don't Feed the Greed Guy's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    JB_Iowa (03-26-2014), mike wants wins (03-26-2014), tobi0040 (03-26-2014)

  6. #24
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    877
    Like
    485
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Here we go again, my friends. This staff made an aggregious error in judgment about Worley, apparently. Okay, mea culpa to them. Now, let's talk about their savvy assessments for a second. Let's focus on their bullpen. Yeah, I know, I'm being unfairly selective here, aren't I? Other team's scouts cast aside Thielbar, Burton, and Fien. What a bunch of nincompoops. Our scouts were savvy enough to scout and draft Tonkin in the 30th round, Perkins in the 1st, and Swarzak and Duensing in between. Where's the thread giving these same scouts credit for assembling one of the league's better bullpens?

    Just look at today's waiver wires. The Worleys of the world are a dime a dozen. Whether due to injury or something else, pitchers like Worley spit the bit all the time. You want to assign accountability? How about putting the blame squarely on the person most responsible then? And that's Vance Worley.

  7. #25
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,719
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 566 Times in 370 Posts
    If they thought Tonkin was good, they would not have waited until round 30. That was luck, wasn't it?

    You want a thread on how great the bullpen is, create one.

    I'll ask again, is a team that loses more than 90 games for at least three years in a row doing a good or bad job of bringing in players?
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,866
    Like
    182
    Liked 668 Times in 377 Posts
    Yeah, we don't need to repaint reality and say Revere is a 4th outfielder to excuse the team. There may be many factors beyond their control on this, but that they got a steal to get him thrown in because Revere isn't very good/valuable?

    That seems silly. Worley was a valuable piece and, at one point, sat high enough in this organization's pitching ranks to be an opening day starter. No matter how you slice it, this is a huge loss to the team to be in this position.

    Who is accountable to that I don't know. But it sure isn't something to dismiss out of some bizarre (and incorrect) argument about Revere's value.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 03-26-2014 at 09:09 AM.

  9. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    877
    Like
    485
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If they thought Tonkin was good, they would not have waited until round 30. That was luck, wasn't it?

    You want a thread on how great the bullpen is, create one.

    I'll ask again, is a team that loses more than 90 games for at least three years in a row doing a good or bad job of bringing in players?
    Well, mike, I certainly wouldn't venture an opinion about how much the Tonkin selection was a matter of skill versus luck. I'll leave that to you, my friend.


    And again, I'll answer your last and frequent question. The scouting and development staff is doing better than most of the competition at bringing in players. It's naive and simplistic to think that any team generally recovers from its low point in the cycle in 2-3 years. It takes awhile. The evidence of how well they're doing is just beginning to surface. Do you disagree that the likes of Arcia, Gibson, Hicks, Tonkin, Pinto, and Meyer is a sign of basic competence at the very least? Are you unimpressed by this large group? Can you refute the fact that the next wave is impressive?This includes Sano, Buxton, May, Rosario, Santana, Wimmers, Turner, Bard, and others. How about the third wave of Kepler, Polanco, Walker, Berrios, Harrison, Melotakis, Jones, Vargas, Salcedo, and others. Are they a sign of organizational malfeasance as well? Are Kohl Stewart, Lewis Thorpe, Stephen Gonsalves, Minier, Jorge, Navaretto, Eades, and Vielma a product of dumb luck bestowed upon our lousy scouts?

    Here's what I think: concluding that the Twins have inferior people comes about because of frustration with the lack of wins these last three years, not from the reality of the situation.
    The front office can be rightfully blamed for a series of bad trades, for being spendthrifts to some degree, and especially for a good deal of ineptitude at extracting optimal value for surplus assets. But not for scouting, mike.

    BTW, it's always good to compare. One of the major pubs had a point system for grading farm systems. They gave the Twins the equivilent of a 6, a point less than Boston, Pittsburgh and maybe the Mets as I recall (but not lower than the Cards and Rays) Kansas City got a 3, Cleveland and Chicago got 2's, Detroit less the 2.

    This thread was about accountability, mike, and I used the bullpen example to illustate the hypocrisy in picking one example of failure to demonstrate ineptitude whoile ignoring examples that refute it.

  10. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
    Posts
    1,299
    Like
    83
    Liked 341 Times in 167 Posts
    After 99, 96 and 96 loss seasons the owners appear to still think the front office and coaching staff are doing an acceptable job. Bill Smith was re-assigned but in the end I doubt that really changed much except the fact Terry is a little more thrifty.

    The accountability may only come when the ticket sales fall to a point that really hurts the profits.

    Of course at that point they may do what they did in the late 90's (94-00 era was really ugly) and just reduce costs. This team has a long history of not making big changes to the front office or coaching staff no matter what the product on the field looks like. I don't see anything to say the Pohlads will change that in the near future.

    As fans the only recourse we have is not by complaining (might make some of us feel better but isn't going to change anything) in a blog but by not buying tickets. Profits are what run this team, imo.
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  11. #29
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
    Posts
    3,668
    Like
    944
    Liked 1,309 Times in 705 Posts
    Moderators Note:

    This thread is on a pretty volatile subject and is one that people feel pretty passionate about. Let's keep the thread about whether you feel anyone should be held accountable or not and keep the personal remarks out of it.

    Everyone is entitled to their point of view as long as it remains respectful.

  12. #30
    Ben Revere has positive WAR because his speed gives him huge UZRs for the corner outfield spots. When he slots in to CF, his UZR goes negative. his 3 WAR season in 2012 was almost entirely down to his playing right field and getting a goofy high number of out of zone plays. That and his really good base running. He is essentially MORE valuable as a 4th outfielder/ pinch runner, since he can't get on base other than by bloop or bunt single.

    A lot of the angst over losing Worley is because they traded Revere for him. It might be a failure long term, but that depends on Trevor May

  13. This user likes LoganJones's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    birdwatcher (03-26-2014)

  14. #31
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,396
    Like
    420
    Liked 823 Times in 517 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Not to state the obvious, but Worley had 2 years of major league sucess with a pretty good minor league track record. I'm not sure this is a scouting problem. Part of me cannnot help but wonder if the problem here was attempting to turn Worley into something he isn't and breaking him along the way.

  15. #32
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,866
    Like
    182
    Liked 668 Times in 377 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    A lot of the angst over losing Worley is because they traded Revere for him. It might be a failure long term, but that depends on Trevor May
    Most of my angst is wrapped up in how far he fell in under a calendar year. How we got him is irrelevant to that.

  16. #33
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,615
    Like
    70
    Liked 382 Times in 234 Posts
    Accountability? The trade happened yesterday. Was there supposed to be an appologetic news conference? I'll give them more than a day to state that they made some mistakes with the Worley debacle. If asked, I'm guessing any number of front office members will say they messed up in the evaluation.

  17. #34
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    245
    Like
    0
    Liked 51 Times in 26 Posts
    Well it seems that sometimes the "elbow clean ups" may be more serious than we think. That seems to be the obvious change here, not some mysterious coaching plague. Same thing happened to Diamond and Blackburn.

    If May pitches at the big league level, the trade will be a success.

  18. #35
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    877
    Like
    485
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Most of my angst is wrapped up in how far he fell in under a calendar year. How we got him is irrelevant to that.
    His fall may remain inexplicable. Levi, but don't you think this happens with pitchers often? I'm sincere about this question: do you see a one-way pattern that indicates they have a systemic organizational problem with evaluation or the coaching of pitchers or players in general? You're pretty fair in your criticisms, and I respect that.

  19. #36
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,162
    Like
    103
    Liked 277 Times in 200 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Moderators Note:

    This thread is on a pretty volatile subject and is one that people feel pretty passionate about. Let's keep the thread about whether you feel anyone should be held accountable or not and keep the personal remarks out of it.

    Everyone is entitled to their point of view as long as it remains respectful.
    Here are my two cents, specifically about accountability.

    Front Office - I think they should be accountable for not investing a dime in 2012 and 2013. They bought two good pitchers this offseason, but it should not have taken this long, we should have been adding pieces each year. I think that pro-longed our bad seasons. I understand not spending money on a 3B or CF, but we had holes at SP, SS, and DH that were not addressed and the pipeline was bare. Three years later we don't have an answer at DH or SS.

    Gardy - It is hard to fault him for the losses. Joe Torre, Mike Matheny, or Tony Larussa could not have won with this bunch over the last few years. Having good young players come up does worry me a bit. I think Gardy handles them very poorly. He communicates through the media way too much, especially with regard to young players. Would we find anything better out there? Tough to say. It seems an easy fix would be to have him keep things in house. While they are talking to him, explain the thought process around the batting order, i.e. number 2 in the order.

    Rick Anderson - Similar with Gardy, no pitching coach could have had results with this bunch. At the same time, I don't understand why he is regarded as a great pitching coach. The minors coach taught Johan the change-up. A previous thread brought up Fien, Burton, etc. that were waiver wire guys that have pitched well here. This happens a lot with bullpen players, up and down from year to year. But we have to mention the guys that were better after they left. Kyle Lohse, Grant Balfour, Breslow, Neshek, Liriano last year. That list is at least as long. Could we do better? I don't know. I think Rick is an average pitching coach and the pitchers he coaches all like him. As long as Rick doesn't try changing guys like Meyer and in the name of pitch counts talk him into pitching to contact, I am fine with him staying.

    One final thought, I think coaches in baseball have less impact on results than in all the other major sports. They get way too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. Mike Scoscia and Gardy were the best coaches in the game in 2002, now both are fighting for their jobs. Neither has changed the way they coach or interact with players.
    Last edited by tobi0040; 03-26-2014 at 11:10 AM.

  20. #37
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,719
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 566 Times in 370 Posts
    Things change in 12 years, even baseball. There is research in the NFL that shows coaches decline in effectiveness after 9-11 years with the same team. Don't know if there is similar research in baseball. Also, some leaders are great with experienced employees, and some are great with new employees. Just because a manager was considered great in one context, does not mean he is in another (nor does it mean they aren't).
    Lighten up Francis....

  21. This user likes mike wants wins's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    JB_Iowa (03-26-2014)

  22. #38
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    4,014
    Like
    104
    Liked 393 Times in 207 Posts
    I'm not sure how you hold anyone accountable when a pitcher was coming off a very serious arm injury, and at no point after said injury did he look anything close to his pre-injury self.

    If Johan ends up pitching for the Orioles this year after his arm injury and stinks up the joint with a 5.60 ERA, is someone on the Orioles to blame? Or is it a simple case on an injury hurting and ending a guys promising career. I think that is the case here with Worley.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  23. #39
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Posts
    1,049
    Like
    1,649
    Liked 489 Times in 285 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe A. Preusser View Post
    Yes, absolutely. I am all for accountability for everyone, not just the players when appropriate. However, I do not believe Anderson was at fault for Worley's performance the past year and this spring. There's not a lot a pitching coach can do when a guy throws perfect in warmup and 30 minutes later he's serving up junk in the game. Tell him what and show him how, but in the end he must do it himself.

    Another point I'd like to make about accountability on this team is that we often only see the negative situations that arise. What if Correia and/or Pelfrey would have been just as bad as Vance without Anderson's guidance? What if getting .250 out of Plouffe is actually a win? We already know Dozier credits Bruno with turning his swing arouhd. Things like that that we just take as a natural course might very well indicate good leadership. Isn't it possible that the field leadership is actually getting great results with our current group of guys, and likely that many of the failures we've been seeing are a product of a poorer talent level than we'd prefer?
    I do see the case for taking failures on an individual basis but for me those failures have been adding up for several years now. I'm curious to know if at the highest strategic levels the Twins brass are privately telling each other that each player needs to be evaluated in a vacuum, and that there's nothing more to it than that.

    Your question of whether it's possible that the field leadership is actually getting great results? Well here's how I answer.. Sure there have been successes, Mauer, Perkins, bullpens, Diamond '12, Pavano, maybe Dozier or Correia (success is a generous word here), behind that line of thinking always seems to come the idea that our coaches and instructors are squeezing every productive drop out of these guys. In other words, yeah but if it weren't for the leadership and expertise of St. Peter or Gardy or Andy or Antony or TK or whoever, this team might have finished as bad as 57-105, but we outplayed our ability to a record of 66-96 instead. And that somehow settles the accountability question.

  24. #40
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Posts
    1,049
    Like
    1,649
    Liked 489 Times in 285 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm not sure how you hold anyone accountable when a pitcher was coming off a very serious arm injury, and at no point after said injury did he look anything close to his pre-injury self.

    If Johan ends up pitching for the Orioles this year after his arm injury and stinks up the joint with a 5.60 ERA, is someone on the Orioles to blame? Or is it a simple case on an injury hurting and ending a guys promising career. I think that is the case here with Worley.
    First paragraph.

    If you are referring to Worley, then yes. Whoever named Worley opening day starter when Worley was coming off a very seriously injured and was not close to fully recovered, that person would be directly accountable for making a harmful decision for the organization.

  25. This user likes Hosken Bombo Disco's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    tobi0040 (03-26-2014)

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.