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Thread: 2013 Forbes Numbers

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    In my younger days I made a pretty decent living working for a large local defense contractor. Guess who was ultimately paying the bill?
    Do you not see a distinction between national defense and baseball?

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Do you not see a distinction between national defense and baseball?
    From a business perspective? Not really. One may have larger and more costly boondoggles than the other.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    From a business perspective? Not really. One may have larger and more costly boondoggles than the other.
    I can't argue about the boondoggle part, but I would argue having no national defense versus no baseball has alternative negative consequences. In one case, we watch another sport. In the other this thread is in German.

  4. #24
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pleiss View Post
    I find it commical that posts are being moderated becasue people are complaining one way or the other about financial management of the team. Let the people speak! I believe the Twins are a successful business, and that, at the end of the day, is the name of the game. They will be a successful baseball team once again, but they are a successful business now.
    Moderator note: I would suggest you read this part of the Comments Policy, then after doing so, read the whole policy.
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    If you wish to discuss moderation, please start a thread in the 'Questions About Twins Daily' forum, or write to one of us. These forums are not a free-for-all where you can say what you want, when you want, how you want. All we ask is for a little respect and civility in our discussions and our debates. We realize passions run high and we have given much leeway understanding current frustrations, but if we have moderated posts and threads, it is for a reason that a post is either well off track, highly disrespectful, or just plain rude. And I believe that should also answer your response in the thread about Kubel. Thank you.

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  6. #25
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I can't argue about the boondoggle part, but I would argue having no national defense versus no baseball has alternative negative consequences. In one case, we watch another sport. In the other this thread is in German.
    Ich spreche ganz gut Deutsch.

    But don't confuse the purpose of something (like defense, or baseball) with the business of that thing. They are two very different animals.

    And with that, much to the relief of our hosts, I'll drop this line of conversation.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I can't argue about the boondoggle part, but I would argue having no national defense versus no baseball has alternative negative consequences. In one case, we watch another sport. In the other this thread is in German.
    No idea how the moderators feel about where this is going, but that made me lLOL.
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    Ich spreche ganz gut Deutsch.

    But don't confuse the purpose of something (like defense, or baseball) with the business of that thing. They are two very different animals.

    And with that, much to the relief of our hosts, I'll drop this line of conversation.
    I think it is difficult, if not impossible to separate the two. We have private defense companies because they can produce better weapons than the governemnt would be capable of producing. For example, give Uncle Sam $10 billion dollars to produce a new line of bombers and give the same amount to Boeing. I think we can all agree that Boeing would produce a product that is better capable of defending our country. So I believe the salary of the Boeing employee is not the same to the salary of a Twins employee.

    The broader point is related to the Twins and this thead about the Forbes value. I don't think the it is a business argument, therefore they can do what they want really works. They produce baseball games and T-shirts. Not medical research or national defense. Those are the only companies that get anywhere near the type of public funding the Twins get. So I think they should be accountable for getting a stadium and not putting players on the field in 2012 and 2013.

    I will drop this thread as well.

  9. #28
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Best Buy. Mall of America. It isn't the dollar amount that matters, imo. Companies get so many different tax breaks in so many different ways, that there is hardly a company that doesn't get breaks. We are bordering on a discussion I'm not sure is allowed in this forum, though.....

    Again, you can want the team to be "more accountable", but are they really? I see no evidence of that. They moved their games to pay tv. They increased ticket prices. They cut payroll. I see no evidence that they, or any pro sports team, is accountable at all to taxpayers.
    What we are bordering on is a discussion that might need to get moved to the sports bar

    What isn't allowed has already been discussed. Let's keep the thread civil, and if this moves more in a political or general baseball discussion, the mods will move the thread. That's not really a big deal.

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  11. #29
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Highabove's Avatar
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    It appears that the the extra revenue generated from a high ticket price structure is making up for a bad TV contract. Despite the low amount that the team receives from TV, the total revenue remains competitive.
    In 2010, the Twins had the 7th highest average ticket price (non premium seating) in Major League Baseball.
    The Twins moved up to 6th in 2012 and 2013.

    www.fancostexperience.com/pages/fcx/blog_pdfs/entry0000021_pdf005.pdf


    https://www.teammarketing.com/public/files/2011_mlb_fci.pdf
    Last edited by Highabove; 03-27-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  12. #30
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    The broader point is related to the Twins and this thead about the Forbes value. I don't think the it is a business argument, therefore they can do what they want really works. They produce baseball games and T-shirts. Not medical research or national defense. Those are the only companies that get anywhere near the type of public funding the Twins get. So I think they should be accountable for getting a stadium and not putting players on the field in 2012 and 2013.
    I don't want to further take this thread off into another realm because I hope that people will respond to some of the posts, questions and discussions earlier in the thread.

    The only thing I wanted to say in response to your point is that it isn't just the Twins. Public funding of sports stadiums is a nationwide issue.

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  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    The only thing I wanted to say in response to your point is that it isn't just the Twins. Public funding of sports stadiums is a nationwide issue.
    I agree with that 100%

  15. #32
    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    I've heard there's no law that forces teams to make their financial records public.
    You are correct. The Twins (as with all baseball teams in the MLB) are a privately held company and therefore do not need to disclose their financial statements like a publicly held company would.

    We go through this same conversation several times a year, with updated numbers from Forbes. These are estimates, and yes the Pohlads are making money, even when the team is bad. That's pretty much all we can say about these numbers.

    What we really can't say about these numbers is exactly how much money the Pohlads are making.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

  16. #33
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with the Pohlads making money.

    If $30M could make this team a genuine WS contender I would be all for that.
    I believe that, realistically, we need to bring along some of these young guys and get close. At that point, I would expect the team to step up and complete the roster with top Free Agents using all the resources available.

    I do not think that the team gaining $400M in value means that the Pohlads should go out and spend that 'paper value'. That really doesn't make sense, from a business standpoint.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

  17. #34
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    I don't agree that they should wait to be a WS contendor to spend more money. I doubt there is any way to close that disagreement, so I'm not even going to try. Just stating my feelings.
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #35
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    If Forbes is correct, and the earnings before interest/taxes/amortization and depreciation were $30.2 million and the fair market value of the franchise was $605 million, then the rate of return was in the range of 5%.

    It seems to me that a rate of return of 5% is not very high compared with most private businesses. Yes, $30 million is a lot of money and might have purchased 5 or 10 more wins last year, but a 5% return seems reasonable to me. My sense is that regulated public utilities generally are allowed profits in this range.

    Am I missing something? Is there some reason to believe that keeping enough to result in a 5% return is in itself wrong?
    Well, it's not *wrong* per se because it's their money (and yes, I know... "taxpayer funded stadium, yadda yadda yadda"), but 5% isn't all the Pohlads are getting.

    The biggest ROI on sports teams over the past 40 years has been value inflation of the franchise itself.

    The Pohlads bought the team 30 years ago for $44m.

    Forbes currently values the team at $600m.

    There's a lot more to owning a team than yearly profits. The real money is found in selling the team, as evidenced by the team being valued at 1500% of what the Pohlads purchased it for in 1984.

  19. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer amjgt's Avatar
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    Anyone complaining about over moderation should go hang out at Rube Chat for a while. It's the Wild effing West over there. Good luck going 4 posts without name calling.

    After 5 minutes over there, when you are sick of that crap, just come on back to Twins Daily with a greater appreciation of what we have here.

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  21. #37
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer amjgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The biggest ROI on sports teams over the past 40 years has been value inflation of the franchise itself.

    The Pohlads bought the team 30 years ago for $44m.

    Forbes currently values the team at $600m.

    There's a lot more to owning a team than yearly profits. The real money is found in selling the team, as evidenced by the team being valued at 1500% of what the Pohlads purchased it for in 1984.
    Compare it to the stock market. I'm not rich from the yearly or quarterly stock dividends from my 1000 shares of Microsoft stock I purchased in 1984. I'm rich because the stock price is 100x the value it was then.

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  23. #38
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I for one am OUTRAGED from this article, 30 million in profit and you can't spend 2% of that profit to bring in DeRosa????? Pathetic.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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  25. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amjgt View Post
    Anyone complaining about over moderation should go hang out at Rube Chat for a while. It's the Wild effing West over there. Good luck going 4 posts without name calling.

    After 5 minutes over there, when you are sick of that crap, just come on back to Twins Daily with a greater appreciation of what we have here.
    Because it's complimentary I am going to give in to the temptation to leave the post intact and not infract you for it. BUT, the discussion of moderation STILL belongs elsewhere.

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  27. #40
    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I for one am OUTRAGED from this article, 30 million in profit and you can't spend 2% of that profit to bring in DeRosa????? Pathetic.
    Sorry to correct you, but the $30 isn't their total profit. There are still taxes and some other things.

    But you're right, there was probably still plenty of money for Mark DeRosa.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

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