Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 44

Thread: Any thoughts on the top of the 8th yesterday?

  1. #1
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,789
    Like
    668
    Liked 385 Times in 215 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Any thoughts on the top of the 8th yesterday?

    Recap:

    Twins were behind 2-5. Due up were Hicks and Florimon for their 3rd PA against Sale, then Dozier for his 4th.

    Hicks roped a double, then Gardy pulled Florimon back and put in Escobar to PH. (Sale remained in the game).

    On the bench at this point were: Pinto, Bartlett, and Kubel.

    ???

    edit: Down 2-5 at the time, not 3-5
    Last edited by Willihammer; 04-01-2014 at 10:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Brad Swanson's Avatar
    Posts
    578
    Twitter
    @Bridman77
    Like
    64
    Liked 56 Times in 29 Posts
    Blog Entries
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Recap:

    Twins were behind 3-5. Due up were Hicks and Florimon for their 3rd PA against Sale, then Dozier for his 4th.

    Hicks roped a double, then Gardy pulled Florimon back and put in Escobar to PH. (Sale remained in the game).

    On the bench at this point were: Pinto, Bartlett, and Kubel.

    ???
    I think the logic would be that Gardy didn't want to lose his backup catcher, put Kubel in against a lefty or use Bartlett in any situation where he needed to utilize a bat.
    Works on contingency? No, money down!
    Kevin Slowey was Framed!

  3. #3
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    6,536
    Twitter
    @sethtweets
    Like
    68
    Liked 380 Times in 201 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    Kubel would have made no sense against Sale. Pinto would have, but would have meant losing two players. I personally don't think that Escobar is much better than Florimon offensively, so I probably would have just let Florimon hit. But, I get it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
    Posts
    1,091
    Like
    10
    Liked 214 Times in 100 Posts
    This is an indictment on Florimon.

    If he's such a terrible hitter that he needs to be sac bunting in the third... and then is pinch-hit for by Escobar... he shouldn't be in the lineup at all.

  5. These 6 users like Boom Boom's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Chief_Roberts (04-01-2014), LaBombo (04-01-2014), Siehbiscuit (04-01-2014), Ultima Ratio (04-01-2014), USAFChief (04-01-2014), Winston Smith (04-01-2014)

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    This is an indictment on Florimon.

    If he's such a terrible hitter that he needs to be sac bunting in the third... and then is pinch-hit for by Escobar... he shouldn't be in the lineup at all.
    He probably should have bunted in the 8th, too. Not that the outcome would have been any different. I wonder if Pedro's appendectomy is affecting his right handed swing. Or if Gardy got a bit excited with the bench move there.

  7. #6
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
    Posts
    1,229
    Twitter
    @crarko
    Like
    156
    Liked 782 Times in 411 Posts
    If I recall, Escobar delivered some winning hits late in ST games. Gardy does like going with the hot hand. Especially when you have few.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    699
    Twitter
    @LoganTibbits
    Like
    498
    Liked 203 Times in 123 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I think he should have left Florimon in there. He is capable of moving a runner over
    I couldn't be a player because of bad eyesight, so I decided to be an umpire instead.

  9. #8
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,789
    Like
    668
    Liked 385 Times in 215 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    I think the logic would be that Gardy didn't want to lose his backup catcher
    Down 3-5 in the 8th with a runner on base, I think you're primary concern has to be - who gives us the best chance to tie the game with 1 swing of the bat, doesn't it?

  10. These 3 users like Willihammer's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    mike wants wins (04-02-2014), Oldgoat_MN (04-01-2014), twinsnorth49 (04-01-2014)

  11. #9
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,165
    Like
    103
    Liked 278 Times in 201 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Down 3-5 in the 8th with a runner on base, I think you're primary concern has to be - who gives us the best chance to tie the game with 1 swing of the bat, doesn't it?
    You can't bat Pinto. Because then IF Suzuki gets hurt, then Mauer has to play catcher for like 1 or 2 innings (sarcasm).

    I am not overly worried about losing two players via one switch. If the worst case is you tie the game up and have one or no options in extra innings, well you are still playing in extra innings when you otherwise would not have been. With Florimon out of the game, you are probably not needing many more pinch hit at bats anyway.

    On a side note, I think we are going to have a lot of these second guessing scenarios, because we have a few terrible hitters in our lineup and a coach that doesn't manage the lineup/roster moves very well and has irrational worries.
    Last edited by tobi0040; 04-01-2014 at 10:13 AM.

  12. #10
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,687
    Like
    3
    Liked 336 Times in 213 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    I think the logic would be that Gardy didn't want to lose his backup catcher, put Kubel in against a lefty or use Bartlett in any situation where he needed to utilize a bat.
    Maybe Gardy thought he may have to pinch-run for Suzuki. Although Suzuki was on 1B with 2 outs and Mauer up, and he stayed in the game...

    Also, maybe Gardy is in agreement with the folks who like Escobar better than Florimon vs LHP. Still, Florimon handled himself fairly well in his first two PA against Sale (no strikes missed or caught looking, worked the count full in his previous PA too) so it seemed a weird time to change course, for marginal benefit.

    That situation pretty much screams for Pinto. He's more likely to get a hit, more likely to draw a walk, less likely to strike out, and FAR more likely to hit a HR than any of the other bench options, pretty much regardless of pitcher handedness. Wonder if Gardy would have approached it differently if the batter was the potential tying run?

    Part of the benefit of playing a veteran like Suzuki (particularly one with a reputation as a durable gamer) is that it's less critical to always have a backup catcher available. If Suzuki gets dinged up, you're not risking your future to keep him in the game (where you otherwise might remove Mauer, Pinto, etc. for precautionary reasons). Basically, Suzuki shouldn't have to come out unless he suffers a catastrophic injury, so we should be able to deploy Pinto a lot more liberally, especially in the late innings. Swapping Bartlett for Hermann might be necessary here?

  13. #11
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,620
    Like
    70
    Liked 384 Times in 235 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    This is an indictment on Florimon.

    I think it's an idictment on the decision to put this bench together the way it is.

    Question: How often will the Twins be in a position that it needs a righty to pinch hit for Florimon against a tough lefty late in the game?

    Answer: Way too often.

  14. #12
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,687
    Like
    3
    Liked 336 Times in 213 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Down 3-5 in the 8th with a runner on base, I think you're primary concern has to be - who gives us the best chance to tie the game with 1 swing of the bat, doesn't it?
    At the time, we were still down 5-2. Hicks scored the third run later in the inning.

    So, Florimon's spot did not represent the tying run, although I'm not sure how much that distinction mattered. It clearly looked like it could be our best chance to get back into the game.

  15. This user likes spycake's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Willihammer (04-01-2014)

  16. #13
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
    Posts
    3,360
    Like
    1,318
    Liked 1,296 Times in 750 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Also, maybe Gardy is in agreement with the folks who like Escobar better than Florimon vs LHP. Still, Florimon handled himself fairly well in his first two PA against Sale (no strikes missed or caught looking, worked the count full in his previous PA too) so it seemed a weird time to change course, for marginal benefit.
    Bingo. Of the AB's yesterday, I thought Florimon's were pretty good. (I can't say that about some others).

    I was actually surprised when they pulled him. If they had only been down by 1, would he have stayed in???

  17. #14
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,533
    Like
    79
    Liked 173 Times in 107 Posts
    Blog Entries
    31
    I had these questions at the time.

    Does Escobar give us the best chance to win? Using the roster to win games is Gardenhire's responsibility.

    If Gardenhire doesn't use Pinto now, would there ever be a better point? I couldn't foresee a better point in yesterday's game. The only reason not to use him is that one of the three other guys gives them a better chance to win.

    In what game situation would Bartlett be useful? I suppose his leadership on the bench was helpful at that moment.

    If Herrmann is on the roster instead of Bartlett, does Gardenhire use Pinto? Maybe that third catcher isn't so bad after all.

    I assume that Gardenhire thought that using Escobar gave them the best chance to win.

  18. #15
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,687
    Like
    3
    Liked 336 Times in 213 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Additional thought: should we have pinch-hit Pinto for Suzuki later in the inning?Still wasn't a tying run scenario, but with 2 outs, reaching base was critical for extending the inning, and a HR or XBH was especially critical to scoring runs.

    We all "Zuke" was the hero of the day, but in general, wouldn't that be the preferred move? You lose your backup catcher, but you get a fresh one, with a better bat, and in this situation, you potentially get Sale out of the game at that moment (assuming Chicago would have gone to the pen there to face a better RH bat than Suzuki).

  19. #16
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
    Posts
    723
    Like
    121
    Liked 165 Times in 95 Posts
    Not necessarily disagreeing with anything I've read here, but I do believe that Escobar is/could be a much, much better hitter than Floriman. Escobar had a nice AVG in the minors and a great stretch to start the year last year. How can you all bemoan (perhaps rightly so) Floriman's bat and not feel that ANY substitution was for the good in that spot?

    That being said, Pinto should have been put in there. If you're not willing to give him that AB due to the catcher thing, AND you're not willing to let Mauer catch 2 innings, then drop Bartlett like's he's hot and bring up Hermann.

  20. #17
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,789
    Like
    668
    Liked 385 Times in 215 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    At the time, we were still down 5-2. Hicks scored the third run later in the inning.

    So, Florimon's spot did not represent the tying run, although I'm not sure how much that distinction mattered. It clearly looked like it could be our best chance to get back into the game.
    Thanks, I misremembered.

    Down 3 instead of 2, Gardy probably was looking to get another baserunner for Dozier-Mauer-Willingham to drive in. Which makes a lot more sense but, is Escobar the best man for that job either?

    edit (d'oh): Dozier-Suzuki-Mauer
    Last edited by Willihammer; 04-01-2014 at 10:29 AM.

  21. This user likes Willihammer's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    USAFChief (04-01-2014)

  22. #18
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
    Posts
    3,360
    Like
    1,318
    Liked 1,296 Times in 750 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Down 3 instead of 2, Gardy probably was looking to get another baserunner for Dozier-Mauer-Willingham to drive in. Which makes a lot more sense but, is Escobar the best man for that job either?

    edit (d'oh): Dozier-Suzuki-Mauer

    But therein lies the story of yesterday's game. The failures weren't on the fringes. The failures were with the players the Twins were counting on. While I have faith that Mauer will eventually get his game going, I have to see proof of a Dozier return to last year's form, Willingham and Kubel returns to something better than 2013 and a breakthrough from Arcia.

    One game does not a season make and it could all be reversed tomorrow with the fringes doing badly and the heart doing well -- the question is whether they ever get it together so that all parts of the line-up function with some competence. It's been a long time since we've seen that.
    Last edited by JB_Iowa; 04-01-2014 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Changed 2012 to 2013. Forgot a year in there!

  23. #19
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,687
    Like
    3
    Liked 336 Times in 213 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe A. Preusser View Post
    Not necessarily disagreeing with anything I've read here, but I do believe that Escobar is/could be a much, much better hitter than Floriman. Escobar had a nice AVG in the minors and a great stretch to start the year last year.
    Much, much better? His minor league AVG is 20 points better than Florimon, true, but it was only .269. And his minor league OBP is still worse than Florimon's, and his minor league career ISO is lower than Florimon's too.

    I was a little intrigued by Escobar's late season run at Rochester last year, but he looked pretty much the same as ever in the Winter Leagues and in spring training:
    http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats....id=135&t=l_bat

    It was clearly the most lateral move on the bench yesterday.

  24. #20
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Monkeypaws's Avatar
    Posts
    601
    Like
    77
    Liked 114 Times in 68 Posts
    Rendered all the more bizarre when you consider Florimon is 3 for 9 lifetime vs. Sale, whereas Escobar had never faced him.

  25. This user likes Monkeypaws's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Hosken Bombo Disco (04-01-2014)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.