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Thread: Article: Pedro Florimon's "Limbo Line"

  1. #101
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo92107 View Post
    Not quite ready to give up on Florimon. Late last season his stance and decision making started looking better at the plate. This season he got a slow, delayed start because of his appendicitis. I had mine removed a long time ago by a monkey with a dull spoon. Yes, having your appendix removed can screw you up. I was physically useless for about a month, and I wasn't trying to swing a 32-ounce bat suddenly at a major league fastball. Florimon's swing might not be "normal" even for him, until mid-season. A hole in your stomach can do that to you.
    Thank you for sharing your point of view. I've never had to go through what you and Pedro went through, so it's good to hear from someone who's went through something like that.

  2. #102
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Florimon's dWar was 2.1 in 2013, that's not going to change much this year. His defense and the impact of being involved in many more defensive plays as a SS more than his 4-5 plate appearances per game, defense will be a much larger impact on the outcome of more games over the course of the season. However, this Twins team can't afford 3 wasted spots in the lineup over the whole season. Suzuki has hit well, but won't keep it up over the whole season. So far Hick's stats look eerily similar to 2013, but he started slow last year (much slower than this year) maybe he'll get stronger over the season.

    my point is Florimon is less the problem, than the combination of his, Hicks, and Sukuki's bats. Hicks may be self correcting, Suzuki should be a smaller part of the lineup as the season goes on, so the problem should be solved over time.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    But therein lies the question and the intended discussion for this blog... based on his terrific defense, what is that "acceptable" level? I love watching Florimon play, and I loved watching Butera work behind the plate. Defense does matter and it should especially in the context of trying to improve a pitching staff.
    Point: Never had my appendix removed. While not a "serious" issue medically, nonetheless, it was time away from the field, conditioning, routine, practice, batting practice, etc. Im not certain the 3 weeks he had to close out the spring was fair to him, and I still believe he may have been better served getting a little rehab time.

    That being said, 13 games or so is not enough time to evaluate anyone really, pro or con. But it is the almost complete lack of being able to help in any way that is frustrating. Not even successful bunts or hitting behind the runner is painful. However, we did see some of those positives last season, especially the first half.

    With due respect to Guzman, I believe Florimon is the best defensive SS the Twins have had since Gagne. And defense remains his primary asset as well his primary responsibility. As such, the Twins can very much afford a weaker hitter at 9 if they can continue to produce offense even close to what they have been producing so far. Some will regress, but others will escalate.

    So what IS acceptable for production from Florimon is the question?

    Career milb numbers don't tell a complete story. Some players maintain, others advance, others regress. But if you took Florimon's milb numbers and projected them over 500 ab's, you would have the following:

    .249 Avg/ .323 OB/ .672 OPS/ 26 Dbl's/ 3.5 triples/ 6 HR's/ 19.5 SB's

    Now, I'm not going to pretend he can achieve those numbers at a ML level. With his defense and numbers like that he'd not only be a stalwart, but possibly an all-star.

    But a regression to .240/ .310 & .650 ish with similar XB and SB numbers would be very acceptable. In other words, pretty much a full season of what he did the first half of last season.

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    Reider (04-16-2014)

  5. #104
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    The one thing that frustrates me about the Twins SS position is a seeming stubborness against trying anything/anyone else.

    I understand Santana's athleticism and potential, but he's just not ready yet it appears.

    I understand Florimon is an excellent fielder, and the Twins hope he can hit like he did last year, at least in the first half. He doesn't really have to "improve" as a hitter really. Just do what he did the first half of last season but over a full season. That in itself would show improvement and progression.

    But until, or unless, that happens, why is Escobar just sitting on the bench? He is a SS by trade, and since the day the Twins acquired him, Gardy has been very positive as to his fielding abilities. Don't the Twins owe it to themselves to see what he could accomplish on a daily basis?

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    jorgenswest (04-16-2014)

  7. #105
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    After realizing some of the Twins' batting numbers (3rd in total runs scored in MLB for instance) I think it is time I reconsider on Florimon - any team that can score like that can surely carry a fielding whiz at shortstop regardless of how he hits. Colabello for A.L. MVP so far also!

  8. #106
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I've followed this conversation for six pages and commented a couple of times. Here is my take on the "sub-issues" at hand: 1) Yes, the appendectomy slowed Florimon early, but he was fully healthy (but behind) well before the regular season started. He probably was the one starter that needed a full spring to get some semblance of comfortable at the plate. 2) There is no doubt in my mind that Florimon is the best defensive shortstop in the system and shortstop is a crucial defensive position. 3) It does appear that P-Flo is the most likely casualty when Eduardo Nuñez is recalled, so his leash is very short. 4) Florimon's hitting since he has been a Twin is poor and the prospects for more than marginal improvement are extremely small. 5) This season's poor start is fuel for the fire, but it is so early that a couple of good days (well maybe a week of good days) would make Florimon's numbers look OK.

  9. #107
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Since the April 10th day off, Florimon is 4 for 18 a .222 batting average with 3 walks for a .333 OBP and 2 of those hits were a double and triple for a .389 Slg% and a .722 OPS. Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year. He also has 4 stolen bases too.

  10. #108
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year.
    That OPS would be more than tolerable from Florimon, it'd be downright good.

    I just don't think he's capable of doing it.

  11. #109
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    I've carried the ball (so to speak) for Florimon since he first appeared. He was one of Ryan's first acquisitions when Ryan unretired and inherited Nishioka as the starting shortstop. But I heard that Florimon missed some balls in the Tampa series. Unacceptable for a major leaguer to misplay a ground ball in a dome. Maybe after effects from his appendicitis were affecting him. He has always passed "the eye test" by me but the fact is he has missed some plays and he has no margin for error. We will soon reach the point where he will have to bat league average .260-.275 for the remainder of the season, just to get back to last year's .221. Come on Pedro, show us something, and fast!

  12. #110
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    3-4 defensive plays a game, the VAST majority of which are makable by any SS, are more important than 4-5 at bats a game? I don't think so.
    Lighten up Francis....

  13. #111
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Since the April 10th day off, Florimon is 4 for 18 a .222 batting average with 3 walks for a .333 OBP and 2 of those hits were a double and triple for a .389 Slg% and a .722 OPS. Small sample size yes but numbers trending in the right direction and numbers we can live with at SS. Maybe he can put up a tolerable .650-.680 OPS this year. He also has 4 stolen bases too.
    Last 7 days: .100/.182/.100. Oops, trend reversed.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  14. #112
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.

    With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.

  15. #113
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.
    I would go so far as to say it was indefensible to go into the season with Florimon as the primary SS option. It should come as a surprise to nobody to learn he's not going to hit enough to keep a job, or invest time into. He will eventually lose his starting SS job with the Twins--next week or next month or next year--and when he does he will never regain it, here or elsewhere. Lets just hope it doesnt take the Twins as long to realize their error as it did with Rivas and other similar players who went from starting jobs to part time players on their way out of the league the day they left the Twins.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  16. #114
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    At least Rivas had upside because of his MiLB performances and age.

    Florimon, not so much.

  17. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Lets just hope it doesnt take the Twins as long to realize their error as it did with Rivas and other similar players who went from starting jobs to part time players on their way out of the league the day they left the Twins.
    If only we could combine Rivas' bat (80 OPS+) with Florimon's glove, we'd have an acceptable starter!

  18. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    At least Rivas had upside because of his MiLB performances and age.
    Ah, I remember being excited about Rivas, circa 2001.

    It's amazing how similar his MiLB and MLB batting lines are. He was like a .680 OPS chameleon -- no matter his age or level, he was posting a .680 OPS.

    If he could have been even an average defender, he's probably useful as a utility guy if not a starter, especially at pre-arb salaries.

  19. #117
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I was never a Florimon fan, I think everybody knows that.

    With that said, it's reaching the point where continuing to give him ABs is pretty indefensible.
    Was trading away J.J. Hardy defensible?

  20. #118
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reider View Post
    Was trading away J.J. Hardy defensible?
    Not particularly in my opinion, what's your point?

    .125/.208/.188 , where do you draw the line? Not even the greatest human baseball sucking vacuum of a SS in history can justify that line.

  21. #119
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Not particularly in my opinion, what's your point?

    .125/.208/.188 , where do you draw the line? Not even the greatest human baseball sucking vacuum of a SS in history can justify that line.
    Instead of taking a baby or small step forward, he took a large step back. I am frustrated with his hitting. I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe give Escobar a few more starts than normal for the time being and see if he can get something going... At least until the Twins can bring someone in. I'm not convinced that Nunez is the answer. His defense is too frightening.

    I want to give Florimon until June, but watching him strike out and hit duck snorts to the pitcher is scary. Get it together Pedro!
    Last edited by Reider; 04-26-2014 at 01:51 AM.

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