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Thread: If you think Florimon is bad.....

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Nishioka was the worst defensive shortstop I've ever seen, and the worst defensive second basemen. And that is coming from a guy who watched Brendan Harris and Fred Manrique.
    Did you watch that single inning when Gardy played Brian Bu(t)cher at second in 2008
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Nishioka was the worst defensive shortstop I've ever seen, and the worst defensive second basemen. And that is coming from a guy who watched Brendan Harris and Fred Manrique.
    If there was real logic to the vernacular in baseball, Nishioka would be a four letter word.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Calling Florimon a "below average" hitter is being pretty generous.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Did you watch that single inning when Gardy played Brian Bu(t)cher at second in 2008
    No, but I saw the time Matt Tolbert -- bless him -- tripped over second base trying to take a throw on a steal attempt.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    Calling Florimon a "below average" hitter is being pretty generous.
    I was just gonna say, that's an insult to hitters who are actually below average. Florimon is atrocious.

  7. #26
    Senior Member Double-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Bottom line: I don't know of any better options right now. I'm ok with giving Escobar some run, but my hopes aren't high. And Santana is sporting a 11:1 K:BB ratio in Rochester. So might as well get the defense, I suppose, and hope he gets out if this slump to something resembling the Mendoza line.
    That's right, they don't have anyone else who is ready to play ML SS right now so they might as well go with Florimon & hope he learns to hit.

    He's really very good defensively & if the Twins had a better offense from other positions it wouldn't be so bad. Right now, I can't think of one position where the Twins have someone who is one of the best offensive players at their position. If Colabello & Plouffe keep it up they will be but I'm not certain that will happen.


    Florimon is the best defensive SS the Twins have had in a long time....maybe Greg Gagne was as good... so I think they should stick with him for awhile. If he could just cut down on his SO & make better contact he would be a valuable player.

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  9. #27
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Peralta 2013:
    AB 409
    HR 11
    BA .303
    BB 35
    TB 187
    OPS .815

    Florimon 2013:
    AB 403
    HR 9
    BA .221
    BB 33
    TB 133
    OPS .611

    I agree that .611 OPS is bad and .815 is nice.

    However... I make this point every year... Maybe twice a year.

    That .200 plus OPS is a difference of 56 bases.

    Spread out over 134 (Florimon's 2013 total) games and it's 1 extra base every 2.3 games.

    The margins are thin and baseball is a game of inches and sometimes you win with 7 of Diamonds and a 2 of clubs.

    Dear Bruno... Beat Florimon senseless until he goes with the pitch.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

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  11. #28
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by A beginner View Post
    I am with Reider. Remember when Plouffe was ss? I recall actually shouting "you suck" at a game (after a couple of beers). I know, I know hitting is also important,
    but so is defense and Floriman has that.



    Be gentle boys, my first substantive post.
    Dude, I still do that every time he picks up a ball at third base and gets ready to throw. However, I consider it an improvement because I used to do it every time a pitcher threw him something on the outside part of the plate, and I don't feel compelled to do that anymore.

  12. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Honestly if you compare Florimon's 2013 hitting to just about any other guy who played middle infield since Hardy left, Florimon is really not that far off offensively.

    Florimon's 2013 stat line is identical to Dozier's 2012 stat line. Plouffe couldn't hit out of the .230s when he was shortstop (did provide some power). None of the other guys like Carroll, Tolbert, Hughes, could provide any offense at all, except Casilla. Yeah so Florimon is not the future shortstop, but I will defend him against these other guys we've had, in a heartbeat.

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Nishioka was the worst defensive shortstop I've ever seen, and the worst defensive second basemen. And that is coming from a guy who watched Brendan Harris and Fred Manrique.
    You can't get much lower than Fred Manrique. A glorious name from the past.

  15. #31
    It has been a couple years since my last post... Much to the fact that the twins have been so hard to watch I can't even bring myself to care anymore. This year things feel different... Not saying they will be anything but a middle of the road team in the central. However, after watching this hilariously sad video I must say I feel quite good about the team we have today. Other than Pedro's inability to hit right handed, he really is an excellent defensive short stop... One of the best in the league if I dare say so. Either way I just love the flashback headlines from 2011/2012... "Worst twin ever?" Hahaha yes... Yes he was.

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  17. #32
    Senior Member All-Star
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    LOL "is nishioka betting against the twins?"

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  19. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfboy1 View Post
    That's right, they don't have anyone else who is ready to play ML SS right now so they might as well go with Florimon & hope he learns to hit.

    He's really very good defensively & if the Twins had a better offense from other positions it wouldn't be so bad. Right now, I can't think of one position where the Twins have someone who is one of the best offensive players at their position. If Colabello & Plouffe keep it up they will be but I'm not certain that will happen.


    Florimon is the best defensive SS the Twins have had in a long time....maybe Greg Gagne was as good... so I think they should stick with him for awhile. If he could just cut down on his SO & make better contact he would be a valuable player.
    Unfortunately, he's had 9 years of pro ball to try to turn his "IFs" from Whiffs and into Hits and Walks. I think the Twins have come to the conclusion that it just isn't going to happen. Perhaps Goin has shown the braintrust that Flori's history is deterministic and the cost/benefit ratio of what it means to the 2014 Twins to keeping P-Flo on the field just isn't going to work. I think he still has value as a late-inning utility guy, and it's probably time to let him build his skill-set at the other positions by using his remaining option and getting him back on the farm for a spell.

  20. #34
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    I love watching P-Flo play defense but I leave the room when he comes to the plate. It's embarrassing that a player on a major league roster is that useless at the dish.
    Last edited by twinsnorth49; 04-16-2014 at 10:26 PM.

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  22. #35
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    A well known SS in these parts with a career slash line much like Pedro with:
    .232/.277/.296/.573 ops+ 62
    Pedro:
    .212/.273/.314/.587 ops+ 63

    A guess? Our beloved manager Gardy! I would guess Padro is a little better fielder than Gardy was but I seriously doubt he battles his tail off like Gardy did.

    There is a list of comparable guys at BB Ref and one thing they have in common is they didn't last long, just like Gardy.
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

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  24. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    A well known SS in these parts with a career slash line much like Pedro with:
    .232/.277/.296/.573 ops+ 62
    Pedro:
    .212/.273/.314/.587 ops+ 63

    A guess? Our beloved manager Gardy! I would guess Padro is a little better fielder than Gardy was but I seriously doubt he battles his tail off like Gardy did.

    There is a list of comparable guys at BB Ref and one thing they have in common is they didn't last long, just like Gardy.
    Good find. And when you've even (apparently) lost steadfast Gardy in your corner, you're obviously not batllin' your tail off enough to keep your job.

  25. #37
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    The problem with Florimon is that they can't hide his bat in this offense - when it returns to the mean (which it will be bad). You can't have Susuki, Hicks, Florimon in the lineup at the same time and expect good things. You would need Susuki and Hicks to be better then league average and I just don't see that happening right now to cover Florimon's bat.

  26. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reider View Post
    Don't listen to people who claim that Nunez or Escobar etc.. are just as good or better than Florimon defensively.
    This should be very easy as I have never heard a single person even suggest this.

    Has anyone?

    Florimon has one tool that is MLB caliber - defense, and One tool that is barley AA caliber - offense.

    Unfortunately, baseball is mostly a 2-way sport.
    Twins would be crazy to not try and find a player who can play both ways at an MLB level. Is Nunez the guy? I don't know.

    But Florimon is not the answer to our SS problems. He is the problem.

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  28. #39
    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Its not a perfect comparison, but Florimon and Jose Iglesias were very similar players up until last year. All glove, no bat. Iglesias turns in one really good offensive season that no previous numbers would suggest are possible and is flipped, essentially, for a guy that is comparable to Oswaldo Arcia (Avisail Garcia).

    Obviously his current offense is unacceptable, but I'd still give him til June 1st to get to .220 (.650) before I pull the plug, especially given his spring injury.

  29. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Peralta 2013:
    AB 409
    HR 11
    BA .303
    BB 35
    TB 187
    OPS .815

    Florimon 2013:
    AB 403
    HR 9
    BA .221
    BB 33
    TB 133
    OPS .611

    I agree that .611 OPS is bad and .815 is nice.

    However... I make this point every year... Maybe twice a year.

    That .200 plus OPS is a difference of 56 bases.

    Spread out over 134 (Florimon's 2013 total) games and it's 1 extra base every 2.3 games.
    This understates the difference. Using Florimon's games played total is misleading, as Florimon left early for a pinch hitter a lot and Peralta did not. (Additionally, Florimon accumulated games faster Peralta, despite near-equal PA, due to batting 9th on a poorer hitting team.)

    Florimon and Peralta both played exactly 102 "complete games" in 2013, and each had 446 and 448 PAs, respectively. Either of those figures would be much more appropriate for this comparison.

    That takes it down to 1 extra base every 1.8 games, which is actually a pretty massive difference. If you compare Mauer to Kurt Suzuki for 2013 (prorating Suzuki's stats to Mauer's PA), Mauer only had 1 extra base every 1.9 games. Comparing prorated Hicks to Carlos Gomez in 2013, it's 1 extra base every 1.6 games.

    It's exactly the difference you would expect between an all-star and a scrub.

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