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Thread: Mastroianni Claimed by Blue Jays

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    One other thought, is it legal to DFA a guy on the DL? I thought there was some rule against it.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    The problem with this is, these guys almost never turn out and for the same amount of money we could have an actual major league short stop this year. In the years of Livan or Marquis, we could have basically paid the same or less on a per start basis and signed an actual good pitcher. We did get 139 IP out of Livan, at a 5.48 ERA. We should be able to get the same or better production out of any random pitcher at AAA or AA. Look at the rag tag bunch we had last year and our staff still had a 5.25 ERA.

    This offseason, we are paying Bartett and Pelfrey $6.5M or so, Garza cost $12M. I am in favor of getting above average production over below average production for a marginal difference.
    But that's the thing: you're talking like there are these freely available AAA guys are going to show up and deliver hundreds of innings of average work. They don't exist: you either sign fringy guys like Pelfrey or Marquis or Livan or Liam H or the rest of the guys we sent out last year and accept that they are going to range from meh to argh, or else you go try to pick up real starters for real money. Casually saying "Garza for $12m" is not real. He's making $50m/4 yr plus a $13m vesting option. It's not a marginal difference. You're not just spending an extra $5m, you're signing a 30 year old with a serious and recent injury history to a four year deal. That's substantially different.

    They did go out and sign Hughes and Nolasco this season, which is better than a Garza deal because they're more likely to stay healthy. They didn't go get a SS because many of the options were bad, expensive or both. In retrospect they should have done more at that position a few years ago, or at least kept their eyes open for a quick win at some point, but this year the SS market wasn't good. Who knows, if Sano was healthy and hit the ground running maybe the plan was to trade Plouffe for a SS. Lots of plans don't see the light of day, but hoping for "above average production...for a marginal difference" is not realistic.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cris E View Post
    But that's the thing: you're talking like there are these freely available AAA guys are going to show up and deliver hundreds of innings of average work. They don't exist: you either sign fringy guys like Pelfrey or Marquis or Livan or Liam H or the rest of the guys we sent out last year and accept that they are going to range from meh to argh, or else you go try to pick up real starters for real money. Casually saying "Garza for $12m" is not real. He's making $50m/4 yr plus a $13m vesting option. It's not a marginal difference. You're not just spending an extra $5m, you're signing a 30 year old with a serious and recent injury history to a four year deal. That's substantially different.

    They did go out and sign Hughes and Nolasco this season, which is better than a Garza deal because they're more likely to stay healthy. They didn't go get a SS because many of the options were bad, expensive or both. In retrospect they should have done more at that position a few years ago, or at least kept their eyes open for a quick win at some point, but this year the SS market wasn't good. Who knows, if Sano was healthy and hit the ground running maybe the plan was to trade Plouffe for a SS. Lots of plans don't see the light of day, but hoping for "above average production...for a marginal difference" is not realistic.
    Couple of points. Deduno or Diamond could put up the same numbers as Pelfrey and cost us $500K. Deduno's ERA last year was 1.30 lower than Pelfrey's. Injury concerns? Of course, but if all we need is a bridge to Meyer or May in June anyway, the $12M over two years to Pelfrey could have been spent better. As could the money we paid Livan, Marquis, Kenny Rogers, Ramon Ortiz, etc.

    You are correct, Garza received a 4 year, $50M deal. But if we have $5-7M in dead money in the 5th rotation spot each year over the next four years, then we are comparing 4/50 with 4/24 or something like that. At the end of the day, the goal is to win games. Not get innings at a terrible ERA. I am simply suggesting a real pitcher, or SS like Drew is not really as costly as their salary if we are smart and avoid the bargain bin signing that never pans out.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    As far as center fielders in Rochester, I'm surprised they haven't called up Danny Ortiz. He's repeating New Britain and had a very good spring. Meanwhile, the Red Wings are playing Eric Ferris, who is a career infielder, in CF.
    Speaking of center fielders drafted in the 2008, does the guy the Jays designated (Kenny Wilson) do anything for the Twins? He was the 10th OF drafted in 2008 (Hicks was the first, Ortiz was the 24th).

    He's repeating AA this year after posting an OPS of .708 and had 16 SB to 6 CS in 242 PA (must have had injury issues). He's in his age 24 season just like Hicks. Not saying the Twins FO is or should be considering it seriously, but who would ever want to end the DFA limbo fun of marginal players that the Jays, Twins, and Orioles seem to have with each other?

    Now, I've heard that there's a somewhat high ceiling player returning to NB soon, but until then, and even after then, seems like CF depth is an issue in the AA/AAA part of the organization.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Good question, basically could we have DFA'd Bartlett instead (if not outright released him)? Would have cost an extra $500k or so over retirement, it seems, but would have saved Mastro. Maybe we could have DFA'd Bartlett, outrighted him, and he could have officially retired after that?

    Fantastic question for next Sunday's call-in shows (does Antony do one of those now?).
    The money piece of it is one part of the issue. Which, for the record, I don't see how one could justify incurring that kind of cost to drop Bartlett a day earlier in order to keep Mastro. They'll be able to use that 40-man spot on someone else and Mastro was obviously on the DFA chopping block anyway (right or wrong).

    Another piece of it to consider is the more human piece. I can't imagine it would reflect well on the Twins organization to cut a guy that you gave an opportunity to the day before his retirement papers are finalized. It's easy to think of these guys as dispensable pieces, but there's more to it than that.

  7. #26
    Diamond and Deduno were already pitching last year and couldn't have picked up an extra 30 starts. And bargain bin signings do work out if your goal is just filling holes in the short term. It's not a good way to fill long-term holes (like their current SS vacancy) but it's a fine way to manage the back of the rotation.

    But the real point is that they did spend $11m and they got 2 years of Pelfrey. That's about what you can get for $10-12m. It's a little high and the second year was probably a bad idea, but check out the list of free agent pitchers signed last winter (http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/...rs/position/sp). There were a couple of slightly better options perhaps, but some of these guys had relationships to draw on, and in general you're not only dealing in salary, they want as many years as they can get. And then you have to convince them they can win in MN, that they might make some endorsement cash, and that you might keep them around longer than it takes for the kids to figure out AA and displace them. That makes it harder for 90 loss teams trying to go young.

    The trouble with signing a guy for this year to win games is that we have no place for the kids to play. We've already got Deduno blocked from the rotation by Pelfrey, and the day we decide Meyer or May is ready they're even further back in line. (Deduno might not be your idea of a kid to block or not block, but he's a better option than a new two year deal for Pelfrey. The rotation is still crammed with more guys than we needed to sign.) Money is pretty irrelevant compared with roster management.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay View Post
    The money piece of it is one part of the issue. Which, for the record, I don't see how one could justify incurring that kind of cost to drop Bartlett a day earlier in order to keep Mastro. They'll be able to use that 40-man spot on someone else and Mastro was obviously on the DFA chopping block anyway (right or wrong).

    Another piece of it to consider is the more human piece. I can't imagine it would reflect well on the Twins organization to cut a guy that you gave an opportunity to the day before his retirement papers are finalized. It's easy to think of these guys as dispensable pieces, but there's more to it than that.
    1) What else are they going to do with the money? We are currently about 20 to 25 million below our "52%" budget.

    2) How would that not reflect well on the Twins? Giving a guy free money that you didn't have to would make them look good to the players, not bad.

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  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cris E View Post
    Diamond and Deduno were already pitching last year and couldn't have picked up an extra 30 starts. And bargain bin signings do work out if your goal is just filling holes in the short term. It's not a good way to fill long-term holes (like their current SS vacancy) but it's a fine way to manage the back of the rotation.

    But the real point is that they did spend $11m and they got 2 years of Pelfrey. That's about what you can get for $10-12m. It's a little high and the second year was probably a bad idea, but check out the list of free agent pitchers signed last winter (http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/...rs/position/sp). There were a couple of slightly better options perhaps, but some of these guys had relationships to draw on, and in general you're not only dealing in salary, they want as many years as they can get. And then you have to convince them they can win in MN, that they might make some endorsement cash, and that you might keep them around longer than it takes for the kids to figure out AA and displace them. That makes it harder for 90 loss teams trying to go young.

    The trouble with signing a guy for this year to win games is that we have no place for the kids to play. We've already got Deduno blocked from the rotation by Pelfrey, and the day we decide Meyer or May is ready they're even further back in line. (Deduno might not be your idea of a kid to block or not block, but he's a better option than a new two year deal for Pelfrey. The rotation is still crammed with more guys than we needed to sign.) Money is pretty irrelevant compared with roster management.
    Pelfrey was a terrible sign last year as well (allowing a player to rehab on your dime, then make excuses because it was his first year of TJ and he came back too quick). I was however referring to signing Pelfrey this year.

    The point is, give me Deduno/Drew over Pelfrey/Florimon any day of the week for basically the same price. or Garza over Pelfrey for an extra few million. That applies for years 1 and 2 of Peflreys two years. Then give me Garza in years 3-4 over the next scrub we sign.

  11. #29
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Back to the Mastro move - the Twins should try to claim the dude the Blue Jays DFA'd to make room for Mastro. Out of spite, or minor league OF depth, either way.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    Back to the Mastro move - the Twins should try to claim the dude the Blue Jays DFA'd to make room for Mastro. Out of spite, or minor league OF depth, either way.
    The last time I saw something like this, the Seattle Seahawks really stuck it to the Vikings. We signed away Hutchinson and they got us back, giving Nate Burleson $50M over 7 years!

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  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    Back to the Mastro move - the Twins should try to claim the dude the Blue Jays DFA'd to make room for Mastro. Out of spite, or minor league OF depth, either way.
    I was half joking about it above, but they have room. We're talking about a guy who stole 55 bases on 12 CS in his last full season (2012 - 123 G between A and A+). Without Buxton, my impression is that the system is sorely missing any semblance of speed in the outfield.

  15. #32
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Yep, claim the Jay's cast-off center fielder and give him the remaining 40-man roster spot. Then do like the Blue Jays do, DFA him and hope he clears. He's likely to be better than Mastro.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  16. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Good question, basically could we have DFA'd Bartlett instead (if not outright released him)? Would have cost an extra $500k or so over retirement, it seems, but would have saved Mastro. Maybe we could have DFA'd Bartlett, outrighted him, and he could have officially retired after that?

    Fantastic question for next Sunday's call-in shows (does Antony do one of those now?).
    Bartlett was granted his unconditional release after his retirement papers were filed. If he were released before retirement, I'm not sure he would retire as a Twin, not that it really matters to us, maybe it matters to Antony.
    Last edited by Sconnie; 04-23-2014 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Correctio

  17. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Yep, claim the Jay's cast-off center fielder and give him the remaining 40-man roster spot. Then do like the Blue Jays do, DFA him and hope he clears. He's likely to be better than Mastro.
    He doesn't have to be better than Mastro, the assumption is Fuld is better than Mastro. Maybe he's just better than the centerfield options available at AAA or AA.

  18. #35
    I don't know what you guys are talking about. Why, in Rochester alone there are three outfielders on the roster: Chris Parmelee, Wilkin Ramierez and someone named Chris Rahl. And there are four, four!, in New Britain, one of whom is even hitting over .250.

    Seriously, it does seem a little strange that not a single one of them is listed as a CF. The only two guys appearing as such are Buxton and the awesomely named Zack Granite in Cedar Rapids. That Alex Presley cut is looking worse each day.

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  20. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cris E View Post
    Seriously, it does seem a little strange that not a single one of them is listed as a CF. The only two guys appearing as such are Buxton and the awesomely named Zack Granite in Cedar Rapids. That Alex Presley cut is looking worse each day.
    Besides having cool names and real CF-level athleticism in common, Granite and Buxton are also both enjoying time on the DL. It's pretty great!

  21. #37
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    Here's the DFA player the Jays are trying to pass through, Kenny Wilson:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=wilson002ken

    A 24 year old guy with some wheels that has yet to play above AA - he looks like the definition of organizational depth, which is exactly what the Twins should be looking to add.

    What's the opposite of a log-jam? That's the CF situation in the Twins org. right now.

  22. #38
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    Twins claim Kenny Wilson. Pretty bleak stats. Even as a CF in an org with a shortage right now, he's still a pretty suspect 40 man roster guy.

    I'd have rather seen Dan Robertson -- Texas just purchased him from the Padres. Older, but a consistent career .300 hitter in the minors, with a good eye and very low K rate:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=robert002dan

  23. #39
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    I'm curious if the Twins will try to DFA Wilson right away, or wait for another player to come across the waiver wire first.

    I agree that a marginal guy like this is not worth using up a 40-Man spot, but the Twins don't have many alternatives within the organization at the moment.

    It's probably a safe bet that Wilson is the first guy that will be DFA'd when the Twins make their next move.

  24. #40
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    Looks like the guy can't hit, but isn't too shabby at drawing a walk. Sounds like a poor man's Aaron Hicks. And a rich man's Darrin Mastoianni.

    This is getting me dizzy.

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