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Thread: Neal: Rosario has nothing to do but wait

  1. #61
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    I'm pretty sure the drug policy (including the minor league policy) was negotiated by the players union. True, the minor leaguers aren't allowed membership in the union that negotiated those terms, but that's a different issue (that we beat to death in another thread).

    Look, I'm a child of the 60s-70s and it's unlikely I'd have passed many drug tests if my HS and Juco sports teams had administered them, so I'm about as open minded on this issue as anyone.

    That said, if my shot at earning a job that comes with a half-million dollar minimum wage depended on me not using pot... or alcohol... or Hostess Cupcakes... and I knew I could and would be tested for such a substance... and that said policy was negotiated as part of collective bargaining and had zero chance of being thrown out any time soon... I'd like to think even my 19 year-old self would have been smart enough to make sure I didn't screw up... twice.

    I think it's arguably a legitimate safety issue for baseball to want to keep players from playing ball under the influence of drugs, even a relatively harmless one. That said, if baseball (and the union) really felt such use of MJ was a safety issue, then penalties wouldn't apply only to minor leaguers, so that's a pretty flimsy rationale.

    But regardless, the rule is there, Rosario was well aware of it because he failed a prior test that got him warned, and he still failed a second time. Pretty stupid move.

    Covering the Cedar Rapids Kernels for
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  3. #62
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    Brock, I understand you being willing to pass on a job that imposes drug testing that you feel is unwarranted and/or a violation of your privacy rights. It's fine (some might even say laudible) that you would take such a stand.

    I just have to ask whether you'd be quite so firm in your convictions if (a) the job you were being offered had a very high chance of turning in to a $500,000/year gig... at a MINIMUM... if you turn out to be as good at your job as that potential employer believes you can be; and (b) there is no other alternative employer you could move on to and get any kind of similar job for more than, say, 1% of that compensation level.

    Taking a stand for your beliefs is all well and good, but you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Your consequences are you have to move on and get other work elsewhere. Rosario's consequences are similar, but I suspect much more financially risky.

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  4. #63
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins Twerp View Post
    In the eyes of the federal law, marijuana is illegal EVERYWHERE, regardless of what state law is. My senior government kids get pissed about this all the time, but I MAKE them understand that federal law supersedes state law. Just ask John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, and the Confederacy about laws and who tells who what to do. That is my government/law and justice rant for today
    Not to the derail this thread, but it's already there...

    The 10th amendment to the constitution says otherwise. Federal law only supersedes state law where it is explicitly granted in the Constitution, not that anyone from either party actually reads it anymore. Jefferson Davis and the confederacy lost in the field of battle, not in a courtroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    His stick is useless at 2B if Dozier and Polanco are playing there. And, he's better than Willingham or Collabello, and Kubel is gone in a year or two. Who is your LF, if not Rosario? I guess if you are willing to trade Dozier for a legit player or three, you keep Rosario at 2B. But at some point, it sure would be great to play for the present, and not keep trading your good players for the future....
    If Dozier and Polanco are the 2B for this team and neither can move to SS, Rosario is worth far more in a trade than he would be in a corner position. That's a good problem to have I might add.

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  8. #65
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap View Post
    How dumb. A 19-year-old smoked a joint. Big deal. MLB has no business, and certainly no right, to suspend a player for that level of infraction. Time to get a lawyer. Really, what harm did Rosario bring to himself, to others, or the sport of baseball? Marijuana has been proven to be less harmful than drinking alcohol!

    The Anti-Trust exemption is a big deal for MLB, and arbitrary rules like this that violate a person's right to work and make a living are eventually going to be weeded out (sic). By force of law if need be.
    I'd say something about the players agreeing to this as a part of the CBA, but as we discovered in another thread, minor leaguers don't get a collective vote. There will be a lot of interesting CBA changes as this lawsuit that former minor leaguers have brought on works its way through. I could see this being a casualty too. It's kind of unfair to test only the minor leaguers for pot while people on the 40 man can smoke at will.

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    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    But in my expereince with drugs, I think the idea that you can use 2014 super-pot in your off hours and the effects won't bleed into your work
    is a little preposterous.
    So I'm not alone here when I say that I've never had a hangover from drinking?

    That's a true statement by the way, but the reality is that most people do get hung over from drinking, and many show up at work the next day. Personally, I think you should be judged on your performance. If a person keeps showing up hung over, or working off whatever he/she did the night before, their going to find themselves out of job. No drug test is needed. You cannot hide that stuff for long.

    There's a real slippery slope here that bothers me about this whole surveillance thing. In my younger days, I've submitted to drug tests. As I've gotten older, I'm with Brock and I'm not so certain why I should. Using this line of reasoning, I could put a tail on you to see if you are out late partying during the workweek, or tap your phone to see if you are soliciting prostitutes online, or whatever. It's one thing for me to look up your facebook page and see what it is you publically admit to doing. It's a whole different story to invade you privacy as a condition of employment.

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  11. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Not to the derail this thread, but it's already there...

    The 10th amendment to the constitution says otherwise. Federal law only supersedes state law where it is explicitly granted in the Constitution, not that anyone from either party actually reads it anymore. Jefferson Davis and the confederacy lost in the field of battle, not in a courtroom.
    That's close but not quite right. The 10th amendment does reserve powers for the states and the people. But the constitution also contains the commerce clause - granting the feds the right to regulate anything affecting interstate commerce (which has been interpreted very, very broadly), and it contains the supremacy clause - stating that any time state and federal laws directly conflict, the federal law wins.

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  13. #68
    Let's hope Rosario and Hamburger don't spark up too good of a relationship or they may be forever jointed.

  14. #69
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Frasier Law View Post
    That's close but not quite right. The 10th amendment does reserve powers for the states and the people. But the constitution also contains the commerce clause - granting the feds the right to regulate anything affecting interstate commerce (which has been interpreted very, very broadly), and it contains the supremacy clause - stating that any time state and federal laws directly conflict, the federal law wins.
    We can certainly argue the intent of the commerce clause, but let's just use a different scenario, if I grow pot in CO and sell (or just use it) it in CO, constitutionally, there's absolutely nothing that the Federal government can do about it... not that they see it that way.

    And again, the supremacy clause is limited by the 10th amendment. The Federal government has no rights to overrule the states on issues that have not been granted them by the constitution.... not that they care, but that issue is completely different.

  15. #70
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I'd say something about the players agreeing to this as a part of the CBA, but as we discovered in another thread, minor leaguers don't get a collective vote. There will be a lot of interesting CBA changes as this lawsuit that former minor leaguers have brought on works its way through. I could see this being a casualty too. It's kind of unfair to test only the minor leaguers for pot while people on the 40 man can smoke at will.
    He still signed a contract and has an agent to help him understand it. If smoking pot was that important to him, why did he take the job? 20 years old though he may be, he made the decision knowingly and willfully to sign the contract and break it. It doesn't matter if he or I like it, or think it's just, he made a decision.

  16. #71
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    We can certainly argue the intent of the commerce clause, but let's just use a different scenario, if I grow pot in CO and sell (or just use it) it in CO, constitutionally, there's absolutely nothing that the Federal government can do about it... not that they see it that way.

    And again, the supremacy clause is limited by the 10th amendment. The Federal government has no rights to overrule the states on issues that have not been granted them by the constitution.... not that they care, but that issue is completely different.
    (Totally derailed, sorry) If the FBI or Justice Dept thought they had jurisdiction, wouldn't there have been arrests by now? Sure there are ongoing lawsuits, but that's not jurisdiction, that's precedence.

  17. #72
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    So I'm not alone here when I say that I've never had a hangover from drinking?

    That's a true statement by the way, but the reality is that most people do get hung over from drinking, and many show up at work the next day. Personally, I think you should be judged on your performance. If a person keeps showing up hung over, or working off whatever he/she did the night before, their going to find themselves out of job. No drug test is needed. You cannot hide that stuff for long.
    While this isn't the case, what if you're a surgeon, is pot on your own time ok then? Is it wrong if your employer tests then? Do you wait until someone dies to let the results speak for themselves? Rosario knowingly and willfully signed a contract, it's up to him to follow the contract.

  18. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Frasier Law View Post
    That's close but not quite right. The 10th amendment does reserve powers for the states and the people. But the constitution also contains the commerce clause - granting the feds the right to regulate anything affecting interstate commerce (which has been interpreted very, very broadly), and it contains the supremacy clause - stating that any time state and federal laws directly conflict, the federal law wins.
    Thanks. I was going to write that, but you said it far more clearly than I would have. But as long as we're on this derailed thread, granted that interstate commerce includes almost everything, do you think that Federal law would apply in this case to a Colorado farmer who grows pot for his own personal use, and for use of other citizens of Colorado who smoke on his premises? (Really a theoretcial question, I think, since I can't imagine the Feds wasting time on a situation like this.)

  19. #74
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    While this isn't the case, what if you're a surgeon, is pot on your own time ok then? Is it wrong if your employer tests then? Do you wait until someone dies to let the results speak for themselves? Rosario knowingly and willfully signed a contract, it's up to him to follow the contract.
    Again, the market will take care of this problem a lot easier than an employer. Doctors are a bit different here since technically they rent from the hospitals and aren't employed by them, but I get what you are trying to say. My issue is this... there's plenty of legal things you can do and illegal things you can do that can have the same effect. How is testing for pot OK but not for alcohol? I'd argue a hangover from alcohol is just as dangerous, yet where's the test? Or perhaps I simply stay out late each night and finish the party with a random stranger. Should we have the test for that even though me being up till 2 AM makes it real difficult to function at my 7:00 AM shift? There are lots of things I can do, illegally or not, that can make doing certain jobs difficult. Would you be OK with someone being assigned to monitor how late you are out, or how much alcohol you buy at the store?

  20. #75
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    On the drug portion of this thread, not saying what should or should not be legal, or will be, or debating the morality of alcohol or MJ. Honestly don't think that is the point.

    Rosario, even at his young age, should be smart enough to realize the rules at this point, and the consequences, especially if caught and warned once already. And this is an employer concern/policy. My problem, however, is the severity of the penalty under the circumstances and the drug involved. Pot might be illegal, but he was tested for it, not caught with it, or caught selling it. Nor is it an enhancement drug. So to me the 50 games seems excessive as a "1st punishment" course of action.

    On the field, his staying at 2B is ideal for now. As I have stated before, and has been re-stated here as well, his staying at 2B and continuing his development offers him and the Twins greater flexibility. If the now established ML Dozier could transition back to his original, lifelong position of SS, this opens an opportunity for Rosario at 2B. If not, it increases Rosario's trade value to another club at 2B. And if the Twins decide to transition him back to the OF, it should not only be a very easy transition back, but might allow him to continue to be a fill-in alternate at 2B.

    As a further note, this young man can flat out hit. He can also run. Now whether or not he ever develops in to a consistently productive base stealer or not, speed on the base paths is a very good trait to have. Further, while the early power he showed has definitely lessened, he's also been aggressively promoted. I feel given time to settle in to an acceptable level, you will an increase in his power and extra base production overall.

  21. #76
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    He still signed a contract and has an agent to help him understand it. If smoking pot was that important to him, why did he take the job? 20 years old though he may be, he made the decision knowingly and willfully to sign the contract and break it. It doesn't matter if he or I like it, or think it's just, he made a decision.
    Maybe I've missed it but I haven't seen anyone defend Rosario's decision to smoke pot, only that it's a bad policy to punish him for it in the first place.

  22. #77
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Again, the market will take care of this problem a lot easier than an employer. Doctors are a bit different here since technically they rent from the hospitals and aren't employed by them, but I get what you are trying to say. My issue is this... there's plenty of legal things you can do and illegal things you can do that can have the same effect. How is testing for pot OK but not for alcohol? I'd argue a hangover from alcohol is just as dangerous, yet where's the test? Or perhaps I simply stay out late each night and finish the party with a random stranger. Should we have the test for that even though me being up till 2 AM makes it real difficult to function at my 7:00 AM shift? There are lots of things I can do, illegally or not, that can make doing certain jobs difficult. Would you be OK with someone being assigned to monitor how late you are out, or how much alcohol you buy at the store?
    I have fired highly productive warehouse workers who came to work hung over because I and the company I worked for, valued the safety of the group over the production of one person. While I agree that the market will solve the problem, employers testing employees for drugs and alcohol is a market reaction. No employer can afford to find out from its customers or prospective employees what the ramifications are.

    Remember, this is a union decision, it's the players that chose this as much as the owners. Should the employer, or the state, be a nanny? No, but then an employee, citizen, or participant shouldn't break contract or rules, but they do. Rosario knowingly and willingly broke his contract.

    Rosario deserved to get suspended

  23. #78
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Maybe I've missed it but I haven't seen anyone defend Rosario's decision to smoke pot, only that it's a bad policy to punish him for it in the first place.
    I think it's good policy to punish him, he broke the rules and the law. Many employers test for all kinds of substances, as they should have the right to do so. Especially union approved/negotiated contracts.
    Last edited by Sconnie; 04-30-2014 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Clarify

  24. #79
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    I see I missed a great constitution debate and would like to talk about California under the previous administration. Medical marijuana raids on "legal" distributors and growers would happen all the time. US Marshals or the federal police could raid these stores even though state law allowed for legal growth and use of pot. I think it works in CO now and WA soon because Obama and Holder do not care. Im guessing Hilary wont either so those people and new states that pass will be ok until at least 2024

  25. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I understand, but if it is legal, should it trigger a suspension? What if you played for Colorado Springs or Tacoma and tested positive for MJ? You would be getting a suspension for using something you could buy in the corner store.
    You ask a good question. I'm no doctor, but pot is prescribed in some instances for glaucoma treatment. I presume this is for improving eyesight in some way. Were it legal, there may be a reason to ban pot. There are legal OTC substances that are banned by MLB because they are PEDs or masking agents. It's plausible.

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