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Thread: Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

  1. #181
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I actually do understand this. doesn't decrease my disdain for what it is producing.
    Then perhaps your expectations need to be reset? Brock's statement was spot on, it takes years to build a system and it takes time for those guys to hit the show. That's a fact of baseball that absolutely nothing can change.

    I'll add to it. Everyone said we needed pitching. The front office went out and got pitching. The hitting has done everything we could have hoped for and then some and people are complaining about not having room for Arcia. To me, I see a lot of unrealistic expectations. 3 years of losing seasons can certainly breed some frustration, but if that frustration is clouding the view of what is a very obvious moves by the front office to build a long term contender, then I think it's time for expectations to be reset.

    I'm not a fan of everything the front office does, but when it comes to building a solid long term contender, they know what they are doing...

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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linus View Post
    Sticking to the title of the thread.....I'm giving LEN3 no credit. In all the years he has covered the Twins, the only thing I've learned from his work is where good restaurants are in Ft. Myers. Anybody even mildly paying attention knew the Twins were one injury away from another centerfield mess. Now that it has happened, he is stating the obvious. Thanks goodness for Twins Daily - you get more meaningful thought and info here in a week than you do from the LEN3 in a year.
    I totally agree. LEN3 has no original thoughts. He probably gets a good share of his info or ideas right here on TD.

  4. #183
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    This includes Dozier, who as much as I am on his bandwagon, is likely to regress closer to his .304 career OBP, than his current .357 OBP. You certainly have to admit that Dozier is a less than ideal top-of-the-order guy, whether you buy into traditional leadoff expectations or not.
    We disagree here. It's well-documented that I've been banging the Dozier drum for a long time now. I fully expected him to post an OPS of .750 or better with a good OBP this season. I don't see rapid decline from him at all. He's doing too many things right to suddenly fall off a cliff and he's been doing those things for 600+ plate appearances now.

    To me, the only thing that's less than ideal about Dozier leading off is those dingers. You'd like to slide that guy down the lineup and hope he can hit more homers with men on base.

  5. #184
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    There's not a lot of quality depth at up middle positions, period. The Twins should have anticipated these problems better, I agree, but I don't no that there were quick and easy means of amending the lack of depth either.
    I think that's all most people are saying. I'm baffled by the resistance to the notion that the Twins slept on the job of adding more talent to back up centerfield and the shaky starter they had there.

    Whether you want to blame management on the front end or the back end with Presley is really irrelevant to me, however you shake it that player failed them and failed their depth and that does fall on management.

    I'd suggest, though, that adding a better CF option wasn't as difficult as you make it seem. The decision to do so may have been more difficult than some of us would've liked it to be, but there were most certainly better options out there. The problem is that they seemingly went with Presley and Bartlett as their choices. And we can see how that turned out.

  6. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Granted Sano got hurt... It happens. I don't hold the Twins responsible for that. I wouldn't do that.

    I have no idea what the time table was for Sano's arrival in Minnesota. My assumption was it wasn't going to be opening day. My assumption was probably June for clock reasons if everything went OK in Rochester.

    If Plouffe was hurt or continued to chase bad pitches and statuesque again at 3B. I wasn't personally comfortable with not having an alternate option in February. I was also not comfortable with rushing Sano in that scenerio.

    Plouffe has been great and my fears have subsided some? And I guess my 3B issues can be boiled down to... Why would they pass on a Bonofacio? Bonofacio could have backed up 3B and CF and moved to anywhere if Hicks and Plouffe or Sano are cooking.

    CF is the largest issue in my mind tho. Hicks wasn't a solid enough basket to put nearly every egg in.
    Just to change the mood for a second, I think the 3rd base situation was worse than centerfield. Plouffe, or Luckiest Man in the World as I call him still IMO is not a major league 3rd baseman. As this season continues on, some will come to my side, you watch. And we've got no one that's has a chance at being a major league 3rd baseman that can step in.

  7. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'm right with ya... As long as I stare at this puzzle... And why and how and who... It keeps leading back to Bartlett making the team.

    1) It's a 25th man spot and that 25th spot is low priority but the priority gets much larger when the 18th and 19th spots are 25th man like.

    2) I really don't want to hang anyone for this... But... My curiosity is killing me... Who was the Bartlett Guy with the clout to push this through.
    1) Exactly what I've argued all along////. And then the Yankees proved me utterly wrong by making a star and folk hero out of Yangervis Solarte.

    2) At this point, I'm wondering if the Bartlett Guy is somehow related to the Nishi Guy....lots of Uncalled calling to accounts in this organization- and not enough rope.

  8. #187
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There were also outcries over how the Twins had no depth at catcher. That was analysis... wrong analysis.

    Just because it's analysis doesn't mean it's right. Yeah, the Twins could have done something about centerfield. Honestly, I don't really care that they didn't... It required a few things to go wrong for this to be a real problem. Hicks had to fall on his face again. Buxton had to get injured, preventing any kind of "one month patch" to bridge over to him at center. And, at the end of the day, Sam Fuld has played pretty well.

    On the other hand, shortstop. THAT is the one glaring "what the &^%$ are you thinking?" offseason move, IMO.
    Regarding center, I called for Hicks to be sent to Triple A and Presley to start the season as the centerfielder. Presley made that tough with poor Spring Training, but still we all should have learned the spring is often a mirage. If not Presley, the Twins needed somebody to serve as a capable alternate. They got lucky to get Fuld, but calling Fuld "capable" is probably a stretch.

    Regarding shortstop, similar production from last year by Florimon would make the squawking much more muted. It wouldn't solve the long-term problem. Maybe Escobar can solve the problem short term, I don't know.

  9. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Regarding center, I called for Hicks to be sent to Triple A and Presley to start the season as the centerfielder. Presley made that tough with poor Spring Training, but still we all should have learned the spring is often a mirage. If not Presley, the Twins needed somebody to serve as a capable alternate. They got lucky to get Fuld, but calling Fuld "capable" is probably a stretch.

    Regarding shortstop, similar production from last year by Florimon would make the squawking much more muted. It wouldn't solve the long-term problem. Maybe Escobar can solve the problem short term, I don't know.
    Don't sell yourself short, Stringer, we fans lately appear to know more than the club concerning the situation.

  10. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    We disagree here. It's well-documented that I've been banging the Dozier drum for a long time now. I fully expected him to post an OPS of .750 or better with a good OBP this season. I don't see rapid decline from him at all. He's doing too many things right to suddenly fall off a cliff and he's been doing those things for 600+ plate appearances now.

    To me, the only thing that's less than ideal about Dozier leading off is those dingers. You'd like to slide that guy down the lineup and hope he can hit more homers with men on base.
    Exactly right about Dozier's power. I think it's sustainable and is largely wasted at the top of the order, and especially with 2 guys at the bottom of the order whose hitting prowess has closely matched the average NL pitcher. And on the first part of your post, I don't necessarily see "rapid decline" for Dozier, just that it's likely that while others are more likely to fall back to who they really are at the plate fairly soon, Dozier will likely sustain or hit over his career SLG for the year, but likely gradually finish closer to his career average OBP rather than his current OBP over the season-long time frame.

  11. #190
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Wow!

    OK, late to the party I know. Fascinating stuff guys, really. One of the most intelligent, well thought and argued debates, varied though they may be, that I have ever read. Wish I could copy and paste dozens of comments, but that would prove rather fruitless. So I'm just going to do my best to hit my own hot points.

    1) This front office and manager were in place when the Twins were winning, and drew huge accolades from everyone. Ryan left, then came back. Did he get stupid in the few years he was gone? No. Like many things, teams are evolutional. There were injuries, age, FA departures, and misses. The Twins now have one of the best milb systems around, dividends are showing, and will show even more soon. The FO some are bashing is responsible for that. This brings me to....

    2) I shook my head several times this offseason reading threads where everyone has Meyer, Buxton, Sano and others on the club opening day, or shortly past, leading the club to greatness. I'm sorry to remind everyone, impatient that we all may be, that it takes time for this young talent, no matter how great, to reach the majors and perform. I know 3 tough and wanting seasons breeds impatients, but really, you have to give it some time due to injury, development, etc.

    3) We ARE begining to see the fruits of labor. Arcia is a potential stud. We've seen it. He's on the cusp. Let's get him healthy. Gibson looks good guys. He looks really good! I'm shocked at those who are knocking him. I'm not talking ace-Dom at this point. And he still needs a bit more consistency, but have you been watching this young man? Lost 2012. Returned to health in 2013 and worked through re-hab. Now he's a quality SP in our rotation, showing real development and potential in what is basically a rookie season and you want to throw dirt on him?

    4) The Twins aren't actually producing any real talent from their milb system the last year or so? The previously mentioned Arcia, Gibson plus Dozier, Thielbar, Tonkin, Pinto and Colobello (at least so far) TK often used to speak of hitters needing a certain number of AB's to figure out what they were actually doing. And what is happening with Plouffe right now?

    5) The starting rotation. Been a huge disappointment so far no doubt. But Hughes has shown real signs. Nolasco has been hugely disappointing so far. Does anyone really expect him not to turn it around? Already mentioned Gibson. The bashed front office has brought us Meyer, the talented May, and top prospects in the lower minors.

    6) Same bashed FO has brought us the surprising Suzuki, and a surprising Kubel that we all, including me, had written off.

    Now for the negative.

    Perhaps I'm naive or just stupid. But in Florimon I felt they found a talented athlete who could play great defense. A player who had a decent first half to his first season, not so great second half, who could be a short-term fixture if he could replicate what he did last season. Presumably, he would improve at least slightly in his second year. The Twins also had Escobar as a talented youngster needing a chance. And a couple youngsters like Santana to hang some hopes on. While I can't completely forgive inaction, I can at least understand the Twins reluctance to make a major move at the position when they felt they had a short term solution to the position, for 2014 at least, with a very limited FA class presented to them.

    What really troubles me is the in attention placed on the CF position, with all due respect to those who disagree.

    Offseason I argued strongly for two areas, position-wise, that needed to be addressed in a limited market. One was a LH bat to help in the Inf. Mauer, Dozier, and the rapid improvement of Plouffe has made that somewhat irrelevant.

    But the other area that I advocated, that absolutely screamed out to me, was a CF/OF player to fill out the roster. I had, and still do have, big hopes for Hicks. And I felt a Hicks/Presley OF platoon might actually give the team a "decent" #1 or 2 option at the top of the lineup. Something to bridge the gap until Buxton was hopefully ready next season. But there was WAY too much hope there. Someone needed to be signed or traded for there to bridge the gap. Insurance. And there were options available.

    And I don't insult Hick's potential to be a good player, but he's not there yet. And the Twins should have expected that. Don't know what happened to Presley. He had an awful ST. There is probably something there we don't know. But the lack of action to provide something there as an alternate is a glaring error on the part of the FO that can't be ignored. Fuld is a decent 4th OF option after the discard of Presley and the ridiculous loss of Mastro, (what a shame he never recovered from his ankle. But still?)

    That is my soapbox.

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  13. #191
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    And I don't insult Hick's potential to be a good player, but he's not there yet. And the Twins should have expected that. Don't know what happened to Presley. He had an awful ST. There is probably something there we don't know. But the lack of action to provide something there as an alternate is a glaring error on the part of the FO that can't be ignored. Fuld is a decent 4th OF option after the discard of Presley and the ridiculous loss of Mastro, (what a shame he never recovered from his ankle. But still?)

    That is my soapbox.
    It was a good soapbox. I'm not sure how anyone can look at how the Twins entered the season at CF and feel good about the FO's choice. I'm glad they went with Hicks to start, but after they went through the same thing in 2013 they should have been better prepared. That doesn't make them a bad FO - but it makes that decision utterly indefensible.

  14. #192
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    Wow!

    OK, late to the party I know. Fascinating stuff guys, really. One of the most intelligent, well thought and argued debates, varied though they may be, that I have ever read. Wish I could copy and paste dozens of comments, but that would prove rather fruitless. So I'm just going to do my best to hit my own hot points.

    1) This front office and manager were in place when the Twins were winning, and drew huge accolades from everyone. Ryan left, then came back. Did he get stupid in the few years he was gone? No. Like many things, teams are evolutional. There were injuries, age, FA departures, and misses. The Twins now have one of the best milb systems around, dividends are showing, and will show even more soon. The FO some are bashing is responsible for that. This brings me to....

    2) I shook my head several times this offseason reading threads where everyone has Meyer, Buxton, Sano and others on the club opening day, or shortly past, leading the club to greatness. I'm sorry to remind everyone, impatient that we all may be, that it takes time for this young talent, no matter how great, to reach the majors and perform. I know 3 tough and wanting seasons breeds impatients, but really, you have to give it some time due to injury, development, etc.

    3) We ARE begining to see the fruits of labor. Arcia is a potential stud. We've seen it. He's on the cusp. Let's get him healthy. Gibson looks good guys. He looks really good! I'm shocked at those who are knocking him. I'm not talking ace-Dom at this point. And he still needs a bit more consistency, but have you been watching this young man? Lost 2012. Returned to health in 2013 and worked through re-hab. Now he's a quality SP in our rotation, showing real development and potential in what is basically a rookie season and you want to throw dirt on him?

    4) The Twins aren't actually producing any real talent from their milb system the last year or so? The previously mentioned Arcia, Gibson plus Dozier, Thielbar, Tonkin, Pinto and Colobello (at least so far) TK often used to speak of hitters needing a certain number of AB's to figure out what they were actually doing. And what is happening with Plouffe right now?

    5) The starting rotation. Been a huge disappointment so far no doubt. But Hughes has shown real signs. Nolasco has been hugely disappointing so far. Does anyone really expect him not to turn it around? Already mentioned Gibson. The bashed front office has brought us Meyer, the talented May, and top prospects in the lower minors.

    6) Same bashed FO has brought us the surprising Suzuki, and a surprising Kubel that we all, including me, had written off.

    Now for the negative.

    Perhaps I'm naive or just stupid. But in Florimon I felt they found a talented athlete who could play great defense. A player who had a decent first half to his first season, not so great second half, who could be a short-term fixture if he could replicate what he did last season. Presumably, he would improve at least slightly in his second year. The Twins also had Escobar as a talented youngster needing a chance. And a couple youngsters like Santana to hang some hopes on. While I can't completely forgive inaction, I can at least understand the Twins reluctance to make a major move at the position when they felt they had a short term solution to the position, for 2014 at least, with a very limited FA class presented to them.

    What really troubles me is the in attention placed on the CF position, with all due respect to those who disagree.

    Offseason I argued strongly for two areas, position-wise, that needed to be addressed in a limited market. One was a LH bat to help in the Inf. Mauer, Dozier, and the rapid improvement of Plouffe has made that somewhat irrelevant.

    But the other area that I advocated, that absolutely screamed out to me, was a CF/OF player to fill out the roster. I had, and still do have, big hopes for Hicks. And I felt a Hicks/Presley OF platoon might actually give the team a "decent" #1 or 2 option at the top of the lineup. Something to bridge the gap until Buxton was hopefully ready next season. But there was WAY too much hope there. Someone needed to be signed or traded for there to bridge the gap. Insurance. And there were options available.

    And I don't insult Hick's potential to be a good player, but he's not there yet. And the Twins should have expected that. Don't know what happened to Presley. He had an awful ST. There is probably something there we don't know. But the lack of action to provide something there as an alternate is a glaring error on the part of the FO that can't be ignored. Fuld is a decent 4th OF option after the discard of Presley and the ridiculous loss of Mastro, (what a shame he never recovered from his ankle. But still?)

    That is my soapbox.
    Nailed it... Well done.

  15. #193
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    I obviously don't agree with everything doc posted, but that was a great, well thought out, post.
    Lighten up Francis....

  16. #194
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    1) This front office and manager were in place when the Twins were winning, and drew huge accolades from everyone. Ryan left, then came back. Did he get stupid in the few years he was gone?
    No. The division got better

    What the Twins were "winning" with Ryan as the GM and Gardenhire as the manager was the title of the weakest division in baseball and that about half of the time. When they met real competition (both during the regular season and the post-season) they went belly up.

    Also, do not forget that Ryan was the architect of the late 90s Twins, dismantling the (real) Winning Twins' teams that MacPhail built.
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  17. #195
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Fuld made a catch on a fly ball last night almost identical to the fly ball that landed Hicks on the DL. Fuld will be fine. Like an outfield version of Nick Punto. Don't expect him to keep hitting but he can steal a base without getting picked off at least.

    I'm confused about who in this organization thinks that playing outfield is merely shagging fly balls during BP and taking some fungos.

    I'm not totally impressed with LENIII's criticism as it seems to be directed to Antony more than anyone else; in other words, the small fish. But maybe this will embolden him to ask some harder questions of the more powerful people running this team (he's a reporter, right?) though I don't have the grudge against Ryan like many folks arguably do and would actually like to see Ryan left alone until he's been coming to the park regularly again.

    Meanwhile, like I said, Fuld will be fine, a fourth outfielder pressed into starting duty for the next week or so (at least).

  18. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Fuld made a catch on a fly ball last night almost identical to the fly ball that landed Hicks on the DL. Fuld will be fine. Like an outfield version of Nick Punto. Don't expect him to keep hitting but he can steal a base without getting picked off at least.

    I'm confused about who in this organization thinks that playing outfield is merely shagging fly balls during BP and taking some fungos.

    I'm not totally impressed with LENIII's criticism as it seems to be directed to Antony more than anyone else; in other words, the small fish. But maybe this will embolden him to ask some harder questions of the more powerful people running this team (he's a reporter, right?) though I don't have the grudge against Ryan like many folks arguably do and would actually like to see Ryan left alone until he's been coming to the park regularly again.

    Meanwhile, like I said, Fuld will be fine, a fourth outfielder pressed into starting duty for the next week or so (at least).
    8 POs in 9 fly ball outs today and nearly one OF assist at home. And Fuld had the correct read, jump and route on each. His play in the field since he's arrived makes one question Defensive evaluative stats in the aggregate. I've always thought he was a terrific defensive player, a perfect 4th OFer. The Twins were extremely fortunate to win the claim on Fuld, credit to them for being proactive, but they dug themselves this hole in the first place through a series of unforced errors, starting with failing to have legitimate major league depth, both going into 2013 and 2014, and then cutting legitimate CF options in favor of a washed-up Team Chemist.

    There may be a problem just ahead though. I can think of 4 of the recent Twins concussion victims being out for significant amounts of time (Span, Morrneau, Ramirez and Mauer). So there's no guarantee that Hicks will be down for only the next 7 days. In which case, the Twins should still be working hard to strengthen their OF depth, as Fuld is likely not up to the task of starting every day.

    Incredibly, and to your bolded point above, it was hinted on today's broadcast that Danny Santana was being drilled in the OF today- c'mon, they gotta come up with a more thought out solution than that.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-03-2014 at 06:10 PM.

  19. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    8 POs in 9 fly ball outs today and nearly one OF assist at home. And Fuld had the correct read, jump and route on each. His play in the field since he's arrived makes one question Defensive evaluative stats in the aggregate. I've always thought he was a terrific defensive player, a perfect 4th OFer. The Twins were extremely fortunate to win the claim on Fuld, credit to them for being proactive, but they dug themselves this hole in the first place through a series of unforced errors, starting with failing to have legitimate major league depth, both going into 2013 and 2014, and then cutting legitimate CF options in favor of a washed-up Team Chemist.

    There may be a problem just ahead though. I can think of 4 of the recent Twins concussion victims being out for significant amounts of time (Span, Morrneau, Ramirez and Mauer). So there's no guarantee that Hicks will be down for only the next 7 days. In which case, the Twins should still be working hard to strengthen their OF depth, as Fuld is likely not up to the task of starting every day.

    Incredibly, and to your bolded point above, it was hinted on today's broadcast that Danny Santana was being drilled in the OF today- c'mon, they gotta come up with a more thought out solution than that.
    I listened to the daily Gardy/Provus chat before the game today and Gardy was pretty much doubling down on Anyone-as-Outfielder meme. "Santana is taking some fly balls" and all that. Same thing you heard. Well, if Santana does play outfield, let's hope no one hits a ground ball to him.

    What do the defense metrics say about Fuld? Basically he looks fearless, seems to have good range, and throws himself into somersaults to get as much on his throws as he can. Punto-esque. Note to front office: that probably makes him an injury risk.

  20. #198
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    I'd like to touch on the Solarte shenanigans once more. Why would the Twins not resign him during his free agency period years ago and instead go through machinations to sign Florimon instead? How many other MLB franchises would do such a series of moves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    I'd like to touch on the Solarte shenanigans once more. Why would the Twins not resign him during his free agency period years ago and instead go through machinations to sign Florimon instead? How many other MLB franchises would do such a series of moves?
    I don't think it was that insane. Texas made Solarte a minor league free agent twice, and for two offseasons, Solarte failed to find a club who thought he was worth a 40 man spot or MLB time until the injury-filled Yankees this year.

    That said, at the time Twins were absolutely barren in the infield. Nishi had failed, Casilla, Valencia, and Plouffe were all very suspect, and Dozier had yet to play above AA. They should have been hoarding infield options, not casting them aside. We opened that 2012 season with Sean Burroughs on the roster, for crying out loud.

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    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Regarding the initial scope of this thread--depth at centerfield. Danny Santana has played a grand total of 23 games in center and two games in leftfield over seven minor league seasons. Will that limited experience be enough until/if Aaron Hicks returns from that seven-day concussion/disabled list thingee?

    Will he stay longer as the backup centerfielder? My guess is that it's Fuld, Hicks, Santana, and a few Hail Mary's directed at the training room until Byron Buxton tears up the minors & makes his debut in the second half of this season. OR... the Twins stay hot and rent a pending 2015 free agent/centerfielder until the end of the season.

    What say you?

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