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Thread: Article: Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

  1. #21
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    We agree that the Bartlett decision was dumb
    it was dumb for precisely the reasons you are defending: they were flippant about who they gave that roster spot to. Every spot should be treated as having value, but the Twins ignored that and took your "bah! It's just the 25th spot! Who cares?" approach and that's why this became such an issue.

    Ignoring the value of every 40 man and especially every 25 man spot has been a plague for this team for awhile. Situations like this shine a light on how absurd it is that the Twins act this way and equally absurd it is that some defend it.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    We agree that the Bartlett decision was dumb but I don't feel the loss of Presley was crippling, as evidenced by the acquisition of Fuld in his place, a guy who has been much better than Presley this season.

    And we can't have it both ways. This article is criticizing the Twins for going with aging veterans instead of prospects, a valid criticism given the Guerrier move.

    But it's pretty tough to criticize the Mastro release when the Twins used that spot to pick up Kenny Wilson, a 24 year old centerfielder. They released Mastro, a guy who has lost a step and never looks to be a legitimate MLB player again, and acquired a young guy with marginal upside.

    Isn't that the type of move we generally applaud?

    The Twins lost four outfielders in a matter of four weeks. Any team is going to suffer under those circumstances. The real blunder in my mind is not attempting to fix this situation (which, again, was only for one game) by calling up some, you know, outfielders to patch together a roster for 1-2 games while Hicks gets ready to return.

    As of today, the Twins now have a centerfielder on the roster again. In my eyes, the problem wasn't that they were missing a centerfielder for a single game, the problem is that they didn't do anything about it while the minor league team was just 140 miles away.

    Call up Parmelee and maybe Arcia yesterday and this situation is still ugly but it's not catastrophic. At that point, the team has multiple (bad) options in the outfield for a single game and all you lose is roster chaff like Florimon and Herrmann in the process.
    Kenny Wilson will not be ready to play in the majors until next September, at the earliest. He's barely a AA guy. Mastro would be playing now, instead of Escobar or Hermann or whatever other guy is out of position and costing us games. I can't believe you don't see it. Losing Presley cost us an outfielder. Claiming Fuld didn't improve that, because it cost us another outfielder. So we're still down an outfielder. And the Fuld deal happened a month into a season when we were short an outfielder.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  4. #23
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Kenny Wilson will not be ready to play in the majors until next September, at the earliest. He's barely a AA guy. Mastro would be playing now, instead of Escobar or Hermann or whatever other guy is out of position and costing us games. I can't believe you don't see it. Losing Presley cost us an outfielder. Claiming Fuld didn't improve that, because it cost us another outfielder. So we're still down an outfielder. And the Fuld deal happened a month into a season when we were short an outfielder.
    What I don't understand is the complaint that the Twins are giving bad ABs to marginal vets but then complain when they pick up a young player at the expense of an older guy who looked really bad in center.

    I don't like the last set of moves because the Twins got older and they lost a 25 year old pitcher in the process. I don't complain about the Mastro move for the same reason.

    If we want the Twins to get younger, we should be applauding them when they do it and rightfully complain when they do the opposite.

    The Twins went into last week with two centerfielders on the 25 man roster. In all but the most bizarre situations, that's enough to field a team.

    And you mentioned Herrmann... I think we're both in agreement that he never has and probably never will deserve to be on an MLB roster. But he's completely irrelevant to this conversation, as we both agree that the Twins should have called up someone to replace him long time ago.

  5. #24
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    If you think either Hicks or Fuld is a CF, sure. How about Rochester and NB, who are their CF?
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #25
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If you think either Hicks or Fuld is a CF, sure.
    They are. Both have been as good or better than Alex Presley.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    How about Rochester and NB, who are their CF?
    Again, injuries. If not for Buxton's wrist, he'd be manning CF in New Britain right now and Wilson would probably be in Rochester.

  7. #26
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    One thing that I think is getting too much attention here is the whole age thing. We want the team to get better, not necessarily younger. I get the idea that you would like every position to be filled with a young, promising player as that secures your future. The facts, however, are that many young players don't pan out so strategically inserting a veteran player that improves your club is perfectly fine. The Twins got very young in the Becker / Stahoviak era and it ended up a disaster.

    The key distinction is that they make the club better, which Bartlett, Guerrier et al do not. Suzuki, yes; Kubel maybe to probably not.

  8. #27
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    Who are the corner OF in AA and AAA, that could have come up the past week to help? And, if Wilson is a AAA CF, then he should be up here, not a SS or DH playing CF, right?
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Nice job, Nick. This sums up things precisely and concisely.

    I do not get the attitude about 24th and 25th roster spots being meaningless. The Twins treated them that way, and look what happened.

    Guerrier and Bartlett never had any business being signed by this team. Some dispute this, apparently. To lose anyone from the roster because of an aging, potentially merely average middle reliever is beyond my comprehension. Meanwhile, Darnell goes back down, Guerra, Oliveros, and Achter sit in the minors while oldsters with no future get promoted, and the Twins just look silly with 13 pitchers and gaping roster holes . . . holes being made bigger by the fall of Jason Kubel, Chris Colabello, and Trevor Plouffe.

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  11. #29
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Who are the corner OF in AA and AAA, that could have come up the past week to help? And, if Wilson is a AAA CF, then he should be up here, not a SS or DH playing CF, right?
    Wilson has a long ways to go to the Majors.

    As for corner outfielders, they had options. They inexplicably chose not to use them, which is my entire point.

  12. #30
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Nice job, Nick. This sums up things precisely and concisely.

    I do not get the attitude about 24th and 25th roster spots being meaningless. The Twins treated them that way, and look what happened.

    Guerrier and Bartlett never had any business being signed by this team. Some dispute this, apparently. To lose anyone from the roster because of an aging, potentially merely average middle reliever is beyond my comprehension. Meanwhile, Darnell goes back down, Guerra, Oliveros, and Achter sit in the minors while oldsters with no future get promoted, and the Twins just look silly with 13 pitchers and gaping roster holes . . . holes being made bigger by the fall of Jason Kubel, Chris Colabello, and Trevor Plouffe.
    All roster spots are important but the problem cascades when the Twins don't mistreat only the 25th spot but also mistreat the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th spots.

    That's basically the entire bench, which is what we saw yesterday.

    The thinking that leads a team to adding a relief pitcher to a roster that has strung together 4-6 quality starts while keeping Florimon and Herrmann on the roster is mind-blowing.

    If you let Gardy have a pet player as the 25th man, teams can get past that. It's not optimal but we've seen the Twins do it for years. Doesn't mean I like it but I guess I've been (probably too) apathetic toward that thinking, having seen it for years. When you continue to grossly mismanage down to the 20th or 21st man, you're going to get situations like we saw yesterday.

  13. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Who are the corner OF in AA and AAA, that could have come up the past week to help? And, if Wilson is a AAA CF, then he should be up here, not a SS or DH playing CF, right?
    The only person worth mentioning who might ever have such a chance would be Danny Ortiz. His ceiling is very likely 4th OF, with only spot relief in CF.

  14. #32
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    I am patient and the last two years I have been ok with the Twins but now they have lost some of my trust. Some point out that we could still have Span but would you trade him for Meyer? I wouldn't. Rebuilding takes time and injuries happen but bringing up infielders when you need outfielders makes no sense and yes, Parmalee is a perfectly acceptable replacement in that situation. Losing Hicks, Arcia, Willingham and Fuld in such a short time is something no one can or should prepare for. If we had lost Puckett, Mack, Gladden and Bush all at once there would have probably been a similar vacuum. That's just for example. Take your pick of outfields and you would get the same results. It didn't bother me at all that they gave Kubel, Bartlett and Guerrier their shot. There should have been and should be no downside to it. If they earn their way onto the roster then more power to them. Where I have lost trust is that no one of them did earn their way. As a result, when they make these kind of moves in the future, moves that should be easily defendable, I am joining the skeptics and seeing them for more than face value.

  15. #33
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    If you let Gardy have a pet player as the 25th man, teams can get past that. It's not optimal but we've seen the Twins do it for years. Doesn't mean I like it but I guess I've been (probably too) apathetic toward that thinking, having seen it for years. When you continue to grossly mismanage down to the 20th or 21st man, you're going to get situations like we saw yesterday.
    It's all part of the same problem - flippant use of roster space. The 25th man SHOULD have value.

    It should red flag you that you're trying to justify one of Gardy's neurotic roster needs. You might as well be defending "We need a third catcher!" - they're equally as brainless.

  16. #34
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Wilson has a long ways to go to the Majors.

    As for corner outfielders, they had options. They inexplicably chose not to use them, which is my entire point.
    I understand not wanting to use Parmelee or Ramirez. Say you add them to the 40 man. What happens when the injured guys come back to take their spots? You have to DFA them, further depleting your outfield depth. Still, why have depth if you can't use it?

    I was actually more upset about the Mastro move than the Presley move because Mastro had an option year left. So he could be that extra guy you call up and send down as needed. Aside from Hermann, who does not belong in the majors, the Twins have a bunch of outfielders who are out of options.

    This is where Antony is clearly to blame. He didn't need to DFA Mastro to make room on the 40 man for Fuld. He could have DFAd Bartlett and paid the extra $500K. Or he could have filed the retirement papers when Bartlett announced his retirement, instead of waiting three days. Or he could have DFAd Raley. He chose the one reserve outfielder who can play all three outfield spots and who has an option left.
    Last edited by cmathewson; 05-09-2014 at 09:14 AM.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  18. #35
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    It's all part of the same problem - flippant use of roster space. The 25th man SHOULD have value.

    It should red flag you that you're trying to justify one of Gardy's neurotic roster needs. You might as well be defending "We need a third catcher!" - they're equally as brainless.
    There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

    Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

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  20. #36
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I understand not wanting to use Parmelee or Ramirez. Say you add them to the 40 man. What happens when the injured guys come back to take their spots? You have to DFA them, further depleting your outfield depth. Still, why have depth if you can't use it?
    I understand not wanting to use Parmelee as well but this was a "all hands on deck" situation.

    And really, should this team care if it loses Chris Herrmann at this point? There's 40 man roster space if they look at the roster objectively. Erik Fryer and Chris Herrmann. Who cares which one stays and which one goes?

    And don't get me started on the Guerrier move.

  21. #37
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Excellent article.

    My 2 cents.

    1) A bad team with one or two reclamation projects is not a bad thing. It's quite possible that Kubel gets flipped at the deadline for a C+ prospect that could turn into something decent down the road. My concern with this is that it was pretty clear that Bartlett in particular was not going to work out well. And he didn't, and it cost us Pressley. My beef here is that I think long term, Hicks would have been better served in Rochester, not in MLB stinking up the joint. Instead, we have another year where Hicks is overmatched and not ready, and I don't see how this is good for his development long term. We could have let Pressley have that shot given that he's proven he can hit AAA pitching, and if he flopped, no big deal as Hicks needs more time.

    2) Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right), as there was a chance we lost somethign good... and look what's happened. To prevent losing someone, the Twins are currently carrying a ridiculous amount of pitchers on the major league roster. If Pelfrey wasn't on the roster, Deduno would be starting right now and we'd be deciding whether or not to move him to the pen permanently, and potentially debuting Darnell, May, or Johnson.

  22. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

    Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

    What he said.

  23. #39
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right), as there was a chance we lost somethign good... and look what's happened. To prevent losing someone, the Twins are currently carrying a ridiculous amount of pitchers on the major league roster.
    Pelfrey was a gamble that didn't pan out and again, it looks due to injury. I wasn't crazy about the Pelfrey pickup but I understood their desire for depth after the past few years. It's hard to argue that the Twins have really lost anything, as they waived Worley and Diamond in favor of Pelfrey. No loss there.

    The problem is that they continue to pile on to that questionable move. Burton probably should have been waived in favor of a young pitcher. They not only didn't do that, they went and added Guerrier.

    *head explodes*

  24. #40
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

    Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.
    But this is precisely what happens when you take the approach that roster spots can be flippantly tossed aside and "easily" overcome. You're welcome to have more rage and frustration with the problems compounding (it's warranted), but that doesn't excuse your erroneous defense of the 25th spot bungling either.

    Yes, it's more egregious and frustrating that they've done this with their entire bench. It's also still egregious and frustrating when they do it with one spot. It's demonstrably poor planning - it just compounds with each spot. So let's be done with the meme of "It's ONLY the 25th spot!" because this is the kind of nonsense that ensues when you believe that.

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