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Thread: Article: Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

    Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.
    four
    Actually, they had FOUR shortstops, as Nunez was on the bench and in uniform, but didn't play. And in this instance, the 25th man problem didn't go away, it is a subset of the "What are you thinking?" problem.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-09-2014 at 09:40 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Wilson has a long ways to go to the Majors.

    As for corner outfielders, they had options. They inexplicably chose not to use them, which is my entire point.
    so, we agree, they wouldn't really have a AAA CF even if Wilson was up there.

    What we are really disagreeing about, I think, is the signficance of the mismanagement, not IF there is mismanagement.

    I am not calling out anyone with this next part, but since so many people rip me and others for questioning the FO.....can one of the people that usually defends them come in and explain how this all makes sense to you? I promise not to be mean, if you ask, I won't even rebut your points.
    Lighten up Francis....

  3. #43
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right),
    I've been railing against roster construction for two months now. Yeah, it's pitching and hitting that this team did a horrific job preparing for and the chickens are coming home to roost.

    But even I didn't imagine the team would be THIS creative in making a bad situation even worse. They took the ticking time bomb I was worried about and found a way to rig a nuke to it.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Pelfrey was a gamble that didn't pan out and again, it looks due to injury. I wasn't crazy about the Pelfrey pickup but I understood their desire for depth after the past few years. It's hard to argue that the Twins have really lost anything, as they waived Worley and Diamond in favor of Pelfrey. No loss there.

    The problem is that they continue to pile on to that questionable move. Burton probably should have been waived in favor of a young pitcher. They not only didn't do that, they went and added Guerrier.

    *head explodes*
    I think both Gardy and Antony favor veterans above all else. That's why Gardy did everything he could to make both Barlett and Florimon work, because once he's trained them, he can sit back and watch. It's work to develop young guys. He hates that. Just a theory. But he has shown it over and over. Guerrier is the latest example. He could keep Tonkin and work with him. But he knows what he has with Guerrier. Same with Burton.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  6. #45
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    It is just unfathomable that the Twins actually went into the game yesterday with the roster in the shape that it was. They had Nunez on the line-up, even though he was DRIVING there during the game.

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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    it was dumb for precisely the reasons you are defending: they were flippant about who they gave that roster spot to. Every spot should be treated as having value, but the Twins ignored that and took your "bah! It's just the 25th spot! Who cares?" approach and that's why this became such an issue.

    Ignoring the value of every 40 man and especially every 25 man spot has been a plague for this team for awhile. Situations like this shine a light on how absurd it is that the Twins act this way and equally absurd it is that some defend it.
    It's even worse than your characterization would suggest. I believe it was Dave St Peter himself who defensively, crassly, arrogantly and soon proved to be, ignorantly, tweeted something to the effect: "I can't believe all of this angst about the 25th man (Bartlett)."

  9. #47
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    It is true, they seemed to be really flippant about a roster spot, as if it didn't actually matter who was on the roster. Mind. Boggling.

    Really, between his comment that they would compete last year, and that a roster spot doesn't matter.....St. Peter should maybe skip tweeting about actual baseball stuff.
    Lighten up Francis....

  10. #48
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    But this is precisely what happens when you take the approach that roster spots can be flippantly tossed aside and "easily" overcome. You're welcome to have more rage and frustration with the problems compounding (it's warranted), but that doesn't excuse your erroneous defense of the 25th spot bungling either.

    Yes, it's more egregious and frustrating that they've done this with their entire bench. It's also still egregious and frustrating when they do it with one spot. It's demonstrably poor planning - it just compounds with each spot. So let's be done with the meme of "It's ONLY the 25th spot!" because this is the kind of nonsense that ensues when you believe that.
    The two things are not the same. The same flawed thinking may be behind the decisions, but one is a mistake that can be absorbed; teams often have a junk player at the end of their bench. The other is a complete blunder that should not happen under any circumstances.

    You're essentially equating bumping another car in a parking lot with hitting a brick wall at 60mph. Both are due to bad driving, though they're hardly the same thing.

  11. #49
    Amen brother Nick! Testify! I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of Parmalee. Yes, he has been given chances and not exactly grabbed the bull by the horns. At the same time, gettting passed over on the roster for Bartlett had to sting. He's producing at AAA. The Twins desparately need outfielders and players that can hit and are lacking a left handed bat with Mauer out. If I'm Parm and they don't bring me up now, I have to face the facts that it isn't ever going to happen.

  12. #50
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The two things are not the same. The same flawed thinking may be behind the decisions, but one is a mistake that can be absorbed; teams often have a junk player at the end of their bench. The other is a complete blunder that should not happen under any circumstances.

    You're essentially equating bumping another car in a parking lot with hitting a brick wall at 60mph. Both are due to bad driving, though they're hardly the same thing.
    Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.
    For starters, See: Solarte, Yangervis...Bonifacio, Ernesto...

  15. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.
    I think the key words are "Good teams". The Twins are not a good team right now. They should be in rebuilding mode, however, they seem to think they can contend and, therefore, bring up guys like Matty G. who they think can help them win now. The front office knows that the longer they appear to be in contention, the more tickets they sell. I think this move was made because of short term goals rather than keeping an eye on the long term.

    As Nick states, on a rebuilding team, you can use that 25th spot to stash a rule 5 guy for the future or use it to develop a prospect. On a good team, that 25th spot is often used for an aging junk ball pitcher who can eat some innings in games where a team is on the wrong end of a blowout. Terry Mulholland filled that role in the glory years. On this team, bringing up Guerrier makes very little sense if the focus is on the long term.

  16. #53
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.
    Not to sound flippant but those 2000s Twins must have really not cared about winning games because they rolled out some pretty awful players as starters, much less 25th roster men.

    One bad roster move is a mistake. Five bad roster moves is a catastrophe. I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. I'm not even defending the Bartlett move, it was a bad one... But ultimately, its importance is questionable because the Twins literally had a dozen chances to minimize its impact and fumbled at nearly every turn.

  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gocgo View Post
    I think the key words are "Good teams". The Twins are not a good team right now. They should be in rebuilding mode, however, they seem to think they can contend and, therefore, bring up guys like Matty G. who they think can help them win now. The front office knows that the longer they appear to be in contention, the more tickets they sell. I think this move was made because of short term goals rather than keeping an eye on the long term.

    As Nick states, on a rebuilding team, you can use that 25th spot to stash a rule 5 guy for the future or use it to develop a prospect. On a good team, that 25th spot is often used for an aging junk ball pitcher who can eat some innings in games where a team is on the wrong end of a blowout. Terry Mulholland filled that role in the glory years. On this team, bringing up Guerrier makes very little sense if the focus is on the long term.
    Another thing about bad teams is that the 25th man, be he a Rule 5 guy or a journeyman, is probably not far away ability-wise to the 17th man, or perhaps even the 9th man in the case of teams like the Astros, Cubs or the Marlins of 2013. It's arguable that, with the relative differences in talent being so narrow in many instances, the bottom 2 or 3 guys are even more important on a bad team than on a good team.

  18. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Another thing about bad teams is that the 25th man, be he a Rule 5 guy or a journeyman, is probably not far away ability-wise to the 17th man, or perhaps even the 9th man in the case of teams like the Astros, Cubs or the Marlins of 2013. It's arguable that, with the relative differences in talent being so narrow in many instances, the bottom 2 or 3 guys are even more important on a bad team than on a good team.
    Very good point. We are at the point in the season when the nicks start to add up to injury and other teams have had a chance to scout the hitters and the pitchers. This is the point last year where the downward spiral started and here we are facing a tough part of the schedule. It's also the point where those last couple of guys on the roster start to have an impact one way or another. Unfortunately, for the Twins, those last couple of guys on the roster are being called on to fill a bigger role than what they should. Really, the last couple of guys on the roster coming out of ST were Bartlett, Colabello, and Escobar. One is gone, and the other two are being plugged in as starters. While Bartlett was a monster mistake, he wasn't a costly mistake in terms of money. Pelfrey is proving to be a costly mistake in many ways.
    Last edited by gocgo; 05-09-2014 at 10:45 AM.

  19. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by gocgo View Post
    Amen brother Nick! Testify! I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of Parmalee. Yes, he has been given chances and not exactly grabbed the bull by the horns. At the same time, gettting passed over on the roster for Bartlett had to sting. He's producing at AAA. The Twins desparately need outfielders and players that can hit and are lacking a left handed bat with Mauer out. If I'm Parm and they don't bring me up now, I have to face the facts that it isn't ever going to happen.
    First off...great article Nick!!

    Second...why the heck isn't Parmalee on the roster and playing RF every day starting now?? (When Mauer is healthy--you can platoon Parmalee with Colobello in RF vs southpaws).

    Third...I agree with majority of posters. What the heck is Matty G doing here and why did Twins hang on to Bartlett for so long.

    This roster is a mess!!!! Get down to 12 pitchers.

  20. #57
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    I don't really see much roster mis management here.
    1. Bartlett vs Pressley....both are terrible so they went with the one with name recognition, also I bet they knew Fulds days were numbered in Oakland at this time too so if Bartlett failed which he did they had their option ready to pick.
    2. Guerrier. we have 8 to 10 options who can succeed in a bullpen roll for a 7 man bullpen. which means we have depth to trade. Detroit and Anaheim Angels have bad bullpens and could come calling.
    3. I can see that we probably should have sent Herman down a week ago and called up Wilkin Ramirez. that's probably the only real mistake I see.

    At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender. Meyer is coming up soon. so that one will be solved. stay tuned.....

  21. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender.

    Whuuuuu? Who is our CF? For that matter, who is our outfield? Who is our leadoff hitter? Cleanup? Never mind the staff ERA of 4.67 and that is with a decent bullpen. I love the optimism, but I think we are more than a couple of players from being a wildcard contender.

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  23. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Chris Parmelee. I don't understand why he has such a bad rep as a defender. He's not flashy in the OF but he's perfectly acceptable in a corner spot and has looked much better than Arcia.

    And you continue to underestimate how long rebuilds take. The Twins graduated two top 100 prospects in the OF just last year.
    I love Parmelee in the OF. Obviously not flashy and doesn't have the speed for good UZR numbers and such, but was awesome playing the Target Field wall and never made a mistake, which is unlike every other one of our corner OF options.
    Scouting Report: Tools - Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)
    Spring Training Regular since 2011.

  24. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I don't really see much roster mis management here.
    1. Bartlett vs Pressley....both are terrible so they went with the one with name recognition, also I bet they knew Fulds days were numbered in Oakland at this time too so if Bartlett failed which he did they had their option ready to pick.
    This is asinine. One of them is an outfielder, one is not. You're also saying their CF contingency plan for months was assuming a specific player would be on waivers when they happened to need him? C'mon...
    2. Guerrier. we have 8 to 10 options who can succeed in a bullpen roll for a 7 man bullpen. which means we have depth to trade. Detroit and Anaheim Angels have bad bullpens and could come calling.
    And how does this justify calling him up?
    3. I can see that we probably should have sent Herman down a week ago and called up Wilkin Ramirez. that's probably the only real mistake I see.
    Having SS starting in LF/CF, having catchers playing the OF, having 1 OF on the roster, not sending down Florimon a long time ago, constantly carrying 13 pitchers, etc, etc, etc. If the only mistake you've seen on the roster is not sending Chris Herrmann down 1 week ago, then you're not watching. Sorry to be rude, but thats the fact of the matter.

    At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender. Meyer is coming up soon. so that one will be solved. stay tuned.....
    If you truly believe this, show me any stats, metrics, or anything that can possibly defend this notion that just Alex Meyer and a SS somehow makes this roster a playoff contender in any way, shape, or form.

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