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Thread: Article: Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

  1. #81
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    Reminds me of the late 90s after Puckett's surprise retirement - the Twins brought in guys like Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, and Terry Steinbach, not because they'd help the team win, but because nostalgia-intoxicated diehards would keep watching and buying tickets. At least those fans were rewarded with milestones..
    Exactly. And that was the same GM who dismantled the World Championship Twins. Same MO 2 decades later (and last decade. Do you remember the Yesterday Eddie trade?)

    I totally agree with the title of this article
    Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites
    but to be fair, one should argue that, in addition to Guerrier and Kubel mentioned here, Deduno, Correia, Burton, Willinham, Colabello, Suzuki & Co, among others should sit or go away because they are not part of the future. (I would love it, if that happened, btw, but this is not the way this team rolls.)
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Not to sound flippant but those 2000s Twins must have really not cared about winning games because they rolled out some pretty awful players as starters, much less 25th roster men.
    Sorry, don't agree. Context is important.

    1. The 25th roster spot in many of those years went to Nick Punto, whom fans mostly didn't like, but would be grateful today to have in exchange for several players on the current roster.

    2. It's easier to be "flippant" about the 25th roster spot when your roster includes perennial MVP candidates in their prime like Mauer and Mourneau, a perennial Cy Young candidate like Santana, one of the best closers in history in Nathan, and various other stars like Radke, Hunter, Cuddyer, Thome, and Kubel (in his prime).

    3. In years when they rolled out weaker players as starters, their records were worse. Not a very good precedent, except the bad records at that time didn't seem so bad, as they occurred in time proximity to good years. After three years of single-digit draft picks, tolerance for roster construction mistakes should be much lower.
    "Where's the Crede?"

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    so, we agree, they wouldn't really have a AAA CF even if Wilson was up there.

    What we are really disagreeing about, I think, is the signficance of the mismanagement, not IF there is mismanagement.

    I am not calling out anyone with this next part, but since so many people rip me and others for questioning the FO.....can one of the people that usually defends them come in and explain how this all makes sense to you? I promise not to be mean, if you ask, I won't even rebut your points.
    I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?

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  5. #84
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Just some food for thought: Remember when a Twins Exec, I think Anthony, said that the Twins were throwing money at people, but no one wanted to play here. But the truth is that players who have played for the Twins speak glowingly and passionately about their time here. The familial sense Twins veterans feel is ubiquitous, even the supposed-spurned ones like Bartlett and Perkins. I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up. When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.

    Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 05-10-2014 at 02:00 AM.

  6. #85
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobirds View Post
    I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?
    Just because.they are replacement level or below doesn't mean there's a ready supply of them on the market, at least after the free agent period.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Just some food for thought: Remember when a Twins Exec, I think Anthony, said that the Twins were throwing money at people, but no one wanted to play here. But the truth is that players who have played for the Twins speak glowingly and passionately about their time here. The familial sense Twins veterans feel is ubiquitous, even the supposed-spurned ones like Bartlett and Perkins. I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up. When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.

    Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.
    I don't buy that. The best way to create chemistry in winning. Of course you want good character guys. But the best character guys can still preside over a dour clubhouse if the team is perpetually in the tank. Winning perpetuates winning. To win, you need to develop talent, not recycle retreads. The only real value in retreads is to trade them for young talent, which has a chance to help you win down the road.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    It's great that the Twins are a nice organization that largely treats their players respectfully.

    It also has zero to do with bungling your 25 and 40 man rosters. If it does - it's a problem. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    .I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up.
    Talk is cheap. Actions matter. And Hunter decided as a free agent to sign with the strongest team in the Twins division recently, and seven years ago declined the Twins' offer and signed with Anaheim. Money talks, not love for the Twins, for these guys, despite what they are saying publicly in interviews.
    Last edited by Thrylos; 05-10-2014 at 08:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobirds View Post
    I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?
    Well, Wilson was struggling at AA, as compared to Mastro, Presley, and Fuld who have had good success at AAA and even a little in MLB. So Wilson was no immediate help to anyone, not even replacement level.

    Also, Bartlett was expected to be the MLB backup OF having never played the position before, and having not played competitively anywhere in over a year. And keeping Bartlett was directly responsible for losing both Presley and Mastro and only replacing them with Wilson.

    Then later Escobar was expected to play OF because the only immediately available option was apparently the nonviable Wilson, and it probably directly cost us a game in Cleveland. The catcher Herrmann was also playing OF regularly and was sub-replacement with the bat (and also almost cost us a game with his OF defense)

    And the long-term value of this immediately useless Wilson? They just DFA'd him a few weeks later, in favor of Parmelee -- a move they could have made almost a month ago and had a viable MLB OF this whole time (albeit not a CF).

    So they have regularly been shedding replacement level OF especially CF, and been replacing them with a sub-replacement level OF and infielders and even a catcher expected to play OF. Still fairly marginal, but frustrating to watch.

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  14. #90
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Exactly. And that was the same GM who dismantled the World Championship Twins. Same MO 2 decades later (and last decade. Do you remember the Yesterday Eddie trade?)


    I totally agree with the title of this article




    but to be fair, one should argue that, in addition to Guerrier and Kubel mentioned here, Deduno, Correia, Burton, Willinham, Colabello, Suzuki & Co, among others should sit or go away because they are not part of the future. (I would love it, if that happened, btw, but this is not the way this team rolls.)



    I think you and dwintheiser are overstating the nostalgia element of the Molitor / Winfield / Steinbach signings. Those guys were still ball players. I don't recall any of the three being teammates like Kubel, Bartlett, Guerrier this year, not to mention the apparently aggressive attempts to sign Pierzynski and Garza, two guys who went elsewhere but can actually still play.


    The late 90s was a different situation. Low stadium revenues but more of a willingness in those final years for developing young talent because that's the right thing to do. The 1999-2001 teams finally matured. Ryan was GM. What's happening 2012-2014 teams feels completely different to me.

  15. #91
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    The catcher Herrmann was also playing OF regularly and was sub-replacement with the bat (and also almost cost us a game with his OF defense)
    Herrmann and his positions are an interesting story: In College (Alvin CC & Miami, one year each) he was a third baseman and caught and played LF some, but was drafted by the Twins as an OF and then started to catch as well. Having more organizational depth in OF than in C around 2011 and 2012, he started to catch more. With that ratio reversed recently he started to play the OF more. So he is a pretty versatile guy, but in a Brandon Inge (who actually is a pretty good comparable for Herrmann) and not a Nick Punto way.
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  16. #92
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Just some food for thought: Remember when a Twins Exec, I think Anthony, said that the Twins were throwing money at people, but no one wanted to play here. But the truth is that players who have played for the Twins speak glowingly and passionately about their time here. The familial sense Twins veterans feel is ubiquitous, even the supposed-spurned ones like Bartlett and Perkins. I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up. When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.

    Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.
    Pseudo, I think you are really over-sentimentalizing this. Substitute "familial" and "kinship" for "country club" and you are getting much closer to a better characterization for many of us. A former player who is still active who speaks well of a former team is not noteworthy. Also, I think it's early to describe the current clubhouse culture as resulting in a "payoff of more wins" if I read that correctly.

  17. #93
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    The late 90s was a different situation. Low stadium revenues but more of a willingness in those final years for developing young talent because that's the right thing to do. The 1999-2001 teams finally matured. Ryan was GM. What's happening 2012-2014 teams feels completely different to me.
    I am not going to discuss the Gardenhire Twins and whether or not they were successful, but Ryan does not have any excuses for the late 90s Twins. Revenues cannot be used as an excuse. Look at the Rays for example. And their revenue situation is similar to the Twins' then. Simply: Ryan (and his team) who are still the same people who are running the Twins, did not draft talent and was adverse to trading aging players with some value for talent. That is what teams with limited revenues do and complete (Rays and A's for example.) Also, that "revenue" excuse is really smelly to me. The same venue was full and brought some good $ when there was a better product on the field both before (the MacPhail Twins were leading the majors in attendance) and after the pre-contraction Ryan Twins. So it is not the strike's fault, the Dome's fault or "luck". It is Ryan's fault. Those Twins did not have talent and Ryan (and his team) is directly responsible for that mess, as he is for this mess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Herrmann and his positions are an interesting story: In College (Alvin CC & Miami, one year each) he was a third baseman and caught and played LF some, but was drafted by the Twins as an OF and then started to catch as well. Having more organizational depth in OF than in C around 2011 and 2012, he started to catch more. With that ratio reversed recently he started to play the OF more. So he is a pretty versatile guy, but in a Brandon Inge (who actually is a pretty good comparable for Herrmann) and not a Nick Punto way.
    Herrmann has completely abandoned 3B as a pro, though, which was Inge's primary MLB position and main driver of his value. And Inge was a 100 OPS+ bat in his prime too, probably more comparable to Plouffe overall.

  19. #95
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopRiveter View Post
    I believe they brought in some veterans who they could trust to set a good example, take some pressure off the kids, and lead the clubhouse.
    A lot was made about this team lacking fire. The veterans set the tone. They picked up a handful of guys they trust (makeupwise) knowing that a few would stick and a few would not.
    It is in the young players best interests to graduate the minors into a functional mlb clubhouse with some veteran leadership.
    If you drop a replacement player to take a shot at one of these guys, that's no big loss. They can pick up another Raley or Mastro 20 times each season.
    So there were bad attitudes a month into the season in the bullpen? The only solution is to bring up Matt Guerrier.

    If you can pick up Mastro 20 times per season, why is there still only 1 CF on the active 40 man roster? 20 times is roughly weekly, the Twins should have 2 Mastros by now.

  20. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.
    Really? I found it troubling, as that also likely means that (given all of the other ex-Twins who have spurned the Twins offers in recent years) it was likely the only place that offered him. And it's hard to be proud of bringing back aging veterans on a team that is supposed to be in the midst of rebuilding- which leads to this comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.
    A country club atmosphere invites a culture where "abstract pursuits" lead to the dead ends we've become so accustomed to these last few years, and which are antithetical to the purpose and responsibility of a sports team- which is to entertain while winning games and championships. And it's demonstrable that allowing veterans to return at the margins has done "little harm"- and it's also done significant harm- and given the embarrassing results of the first 6 weeks of the season with respect to roster management, nothing to be proud of.
    Last edited by jokin; 05-11-2014 at 08:17 AM.

  21. #97
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    I am not going to discuss the Gardenhire Twins and whether or not they were successful, but Ryan does not have any excuses for the late 90s Twins. Revenues cannot be used as an excuse. Look at the Rays for example. And their revenue situation is similar to the Twins' then. Simply: Ryan (and his team) who are still the same people who are running the Twins, did not draft talent and was adverse to trading aging players with some value for talent. That is what teams with limited revenues do and complete (Rays and A's for example.) Also, that "revenue" excuse is really smelly to me. The same venue was full and brought some good $ when there was a better product on the field both before (the MacPhail Twins were leading the majors in attendance) and after the pre-contraction Ryan Twins. So it is not the strike's fault, the Dome's fault or "luck". It is Ryan's fault. Those Twins did not have talent and Ryan (and his team) is directly responsible for that mess, as he is for this mess.
    I am not excusing the Pohlads and Ryan did fail in his short time to assemble a competitive team around what remained of the Puckett / Knoblauch core. But he did eventually assemble a durable core of young guys who were winners. This is not a market that demands sports dynasties which worked in Pohlad's and Ryan's favor. But Ryan can be faulted today for his breezy dismissals of any criticism of how the team is being run, yes.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Add the Phillies to the list of teams who could use help in the bullpen. They are in win now mode so they would trade prospects for bullpen help. That's 3 playoff contenders:

    1. Phillies
    2. Tigers
    3. Angels

    who all need bullpen help while we have 10 different options. Also Phillies and A's could use a swingman like Correia too.

    The beauty of what we are doing this year is we have a huge stockpile of arms we could trade and replace in our pen. Guerrier is one more arm.

  23. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Add the Phillies to the list of teams who could use help in the bullpen. They are in win now mode so they would trade prospects for bullpen help. That's 3 playoff contenders:

    1. Phillies
    2. Tigers
    3. Angels

    who all need bullpen help while we have 10 different options. Also Phillies and A's could use a swingman like Correia too.

    The beauty of what we are doing this year is we have a huge stockpile of arms we could trade and replace in our pen. Guerrier is one more arm.
    Nobody is trading anything of value for any of our relievers not named Perkins.

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  25. #100
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I'll go there. I am thinking that Tonkin would be attractive to a couple clubs, but don't most teams have several guys under 30 that can throw around 95? To my knowledge, the Twins have .......Tonkin.

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