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Thread: Pirates Prospects: Worley Back on Track

  1. #21
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brock beauchamp View Post
    it's one AAA start. nothing to judge at this point.
    fify

  2. #22
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    Funny thing is, I don't know that I would blame Anderson much for Worley. It's not like they worked together much. Worley was new to the system pitched terribly, had some DL time and was demoted to Rochester all before the end of May.

    Though I'm of the opinion that Anderson certainly would not have fixed what ailed Worley. He needs to go. When 90% of the pitchers you bring into the system see their K% go in the toilet, something just isn't right.

    And as much as I don't care for the guy, Worley is right, he didn't get much of an opportunity this spring. He was out of the running for the starter gig just about as soon as he reported to camp and then was rarely used in the pen.

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  4. #23
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    It's one halfway decent start in AAA. Don't forget, he threw 3 CGs in Rochester last year, and 1 was a shutout. He has the potential to dominate AAA hitting...sometimes. Let's start pointing fingers when he's got 8 starts in MLB and an ERA in the sub 7.00 range.

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  6. #24
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Who are the other failures?
    Garza pitched well when he was here.
    Loshe pitched pretty well when he was here.
    Dickey...knuckleballer
    Liriano- Is who we always knew he was (even if people like me didn't want to admit)
    Worley- Let's see him actually produce before we start jumping off bridges.
    It's the strikeout declines, the fact that we'd had awful pitching for what seems like eons now, and the fact that pitchers never seem to be able to maintain their success under his guidance.

    He's long overdue to be fired, whatever ammo adds to that is fine by me.

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe A. Preusser View Post
    I wish him well but if he turns it around it won't be because Pitt has a better pitching coach, It will be because Worley takes responsibility and does some intense mental and physical self analysis on why he can't translate his BP session success to live game situations.

    My least favorite broad fan trend is the tendency to blame the coaches when the player fails, yet give all the praise to the player when he succeeds. These two though processes are not congruent.
    I agree with the first part about Worley.

    The second part can be argued. I think it's been just the opposite here lately.

    Bruno seems to be an asset. Dozier credits him for his power stroke. Twins are taking great quantities of bases on balls which have led to some game-making rallies. Bruno never struck me as a keen baseball intellect but if he's able to connect with the players, all the better. Gardy and Andy are past their freshness date. Those guys are in their 13th year and that was the year Ryan said he burned out and thus retired. It didn't surprise me that they were unable to get through to Worley though like you said, I think Worley himself was the problem.. Hoping Bruno can get these guys (Plouffe Kubel Cola) hitting again quick though.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    It's the strikeout declines, the fact that we'd had awful pitching for what seems like eons now, and the fact that pitchers never seem to be able to maintain their success under his guidance.

    He's long overdue to be fired, whatever ammo adds to that is fine by me.
    I tend to think coaches are overrated both ways. Give Anderson a good group of pitchers and the Twins will end up pretty good. From 02-08, the Twins finished top 5 or better every year in ERA+ (leading once and finishing second twice) except one and from 02-10 they were better than league avg every year. They've been below league avg from 11-13 (and will probably finish below it again this year). Obviously, having pitching staffs fronted by Santana and Radke helps a lot but the team got some pretty nice years out of guys like Lohse, Silva, Danny Reyes, Matt Guerrier, Rincon, Slowey, Baker, Everyday Eddie etc. Not all of those guys were considered good but several left the Twins for big money deals and played worse after they left. Does a guy like Anderson help a guy like Deduno or help Perkins transition to the pen? I'm not sure. Is he hurting Gibson? I'm not sure.

    I do think that coaches have a small overall effect but that some coaches can have huge impact on individual players (Jim Thome credits Charlie Manual for teaching him a timing sequence that let his power play up would probably be one extreme end of that). Maybe Anderson's "pitch to contact" stuff got in Liriano's head (although Liriano is back to his old tricks this year so I doubt it). The future of the Twins pitching is Hughes, Gibson, May, Meyer, Perkins and Nolasco. I don't really think Anderson's fate should be tied to guys like Scott Diamond or Liam Hendriks or Cole De Vries. When given decent talent, I tend to think they've been a bit better than expected.

  9. #27
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    Worely was terrible here. He got what he deserved, a chance with another team. Wonder what other trades/assessments that scout in charge of that one has done......
    Lighten up Francis....

  10. #28
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    If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?
    Lighten up Francis....

  11. #29
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?
    Sam Deduno.

    Lots of bullpen guys.

    While I think Anderson has had success in the past and continues to get good performances out of his bullpens, it's hard to say anything positive about his rotations over the past few years.

    Sure, part of that is talent. The Twins haven't given him anything to work with in recent years. Still, it's hard to excuse just how awful the rotation has been over the past three seasons.

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If a coach isn't, you know, making players better.....what is the coach's job? Outside of Hughes, who has been better when they came here or up from AAA in the last 5 years?
    Pavano. Deduno. Correa had his best season last year. Fein and Burton both revitalized their careers here. Liriano had his best season in that time frame (and arguably his worst). Ditto for Baker and Blackburn in that time frame. I'm not sure how many people thought Duensing would have this good of a career when he came up in 09. Which is part of the problem with grading coaches. That Duensing has been basically a 100 ERA+, 1 WAR/season relief pitcher a positive or a negative on Anderson? Nobody is denying that the team has been bad since 2011 but is our pitching bad b/c Anderson can't get better results from De Vries, Hendriks, Albers or have they been bad b/c the team is starting De Vries, Hendriks and Albers?

    I tend to think that, over the course of his time with the Twins, the Twins have had more pitchers over perform expectations than under perform. Joe Mays led the AL in ERA+ once. Milton was an all star. Silva got nearly 50m in free agency when he left us. Blackburn managed two 2 WAR seasons. Reyes, Guerrier, Fein, Burton were all good reclamation projects. Baker was never a bigtime prospect but had a decent little career. Everyday Eddie, Nathan and Perkins all became all-star type closers under Anderson without having previous closing experience (which bucked the trend). But I tend to think it's more talent than coaching but a coach might be able to help certain types of players more than others. I don't know.

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  15. #31
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    I don't really care about RP.......that's not how I would judge a pitching coach. YMMV on that. How is KC this year? does that one good year offset this year (you know, the longer he works with Anderson)? None of those guys were prospects, that got better the more they were up here. Each, mostly, got worse. That might be aging, that might be coaching, it might be a bunch of things all working together. but if your strongest argument is a bunch of veteran reclamation projects.....not sure that is a ringing endorsement, frankly.
    Lighten up Francis....

  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't really care about RP.......that's not how I would judge a pitching coach. YMMV on that. How is KC this year? does that one good year offset this year (you know, the longer he works with Anderson)? None of those guys were prospects, that got better the more they were up here. Each, mostly, got worse. That might be aging, that might be coaching, it might be a bunch of things all working together. but if your strongest argument is a bunch of veteran reclamation projects.....not sure that is a ringing endorsement, frankly.
    I think the goalposts keep getting moved here. If the question is only "What prospects have come up the last three years and have become good ML starters"** then the answer is none and Anderson must be bad at his job. But if the question is "What success have pitchers had since they've been coached by Anderson" the answer gets a lot harder. These pitchers have all had at least one 2 WAR season under Anderson - Santana, Radke, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing, Swarzak, Silva, Lohse, Reed, Hawkins, Milton, Romero, Rincon, Nathan, Reyes, Guerrier, Mijares, Pavano, Liriano, Perkins, Diamond. Not many were ever on a top 100 prospect list. Now some of those - Pavano - were good vets before they got here and some were starters before Anderson got his job but they seemed to do ok under him. And they won two cy young awards, a comeback player award and over 10 all-star games. So, absent knowing anything about pitching, I tend to think that guys tend to overperform under Anderson more than underperform.

    ** I know we hadn't yet gotten it down to 3 years but I'd reply something about the 09-10 teams being playoff teams based around pitching - Liriano, Baker and a fixed Pavano and then we'd cut those years off.

  17. #33
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    Fair enough.....but ya, if a coach's job is to coach, then I think you should judge them on if pitchers get better while they work with him. Frankly, I have no idea....but the lack of success is probably on scouts, GMs, minor league coaches, major league coaches, and players.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #34
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Wouldn't you judge most of the bullpen success on the bullpen coach instead? I'm sure Anderson weighs in on that too, but there is a coach specifically for that area.

    Also, good pitching coaches clearly matter - just ask the handful of teams that are employing guys that make a difference. (pitt, St. Louis, etc.)

  19. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Also, good pitching coaches clearly matter - just ask the handful of teams that are employing guys that make a difference. (pitt, St. Louis, etc.)
    How is Ray Searage making a difference, or, more to the point, how do we know he is making a difference that Anderson hasn't made? This is Searage's 4th season as pitching coach and he's had one year where his staff was top 5 by ERA+. That was last year and this year the staff is a mess with most pitchers having taken a step back. Every other season they finished in the bottom half.

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  21. #36
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Honestly gunnathor, I don't see the need to get into a "Why Anderson needs to be fired" discussion and start evaluating how coaches are or are not successful. It's likely we wouldn't even agree on the terms of assessing that.

    In my opinion, however, I don't think we even need that discussion. I think it's hard to argue anything other than it's time to move on.

  22. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It's one start. Not a lot to judge at this point.

    But if Worley comes back and is a successful MLB pitcher in any way, Anderson should lose his job.
    Haha...No. Just no.

  23. #38
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    I dont think anyone defended him not taking credit. I for one probably said to be patient with this guy as he has had success before. But no one ever said he was accountable or that making excuses was ok. I was sad when he got traded, not because i thought he could turn it around, but because the noodle arm (lil ben) trade rests on the development of Trevor May.

  24. #39
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    Good to see some people just cant admit they were wrong.
    I would have, had Worley turned into the capable starter that I was told he would.
    It has less to do with being wrong and more to do with gloating when you're right. Lots of us are right about a multitude of things, though we tend not to throw it in other people's faces when it happens.

  25. #40
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Whether or not Anderson/the Twins could fix Worley is one issue. And that to me is a different debate.

    Whether or not there was room for him was another. To me, that's the bigger issue here. You have a conflation of events that forced a scenery change. The Twins went and signed Pelfrey, Hughes, and Nolasco, thus eliminating 3 starting spots with KC occupying the 4th. Worley was out of options, meaning he had to be DFAd to go to the minors or have a job in the big leagues, and quite frankly, he pitched his way out of that job. I'm not exactly sure what "chance" he was hoping for, because there would have been quite the uproar had he gotten the job over Gibson who clearly earned it, and even though he's been lucky, has done quite well.

    My honest opinion was that the 5th spot was going to be Worley's unless he laid a major egg, and that's exactly what he did. Perhaps there was more too it, but any consternation over losing Worley is revisionist history unless that person was screaming in outrage over the Twins FA signings this last offseason. I don't remember very many people being upset about that.

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