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Thread: Moustakas demoted

  1. #41
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    Reaction to the trade was largely negative with respect to the Royals. That wasn't an unusual view at all. I didn't like it, but I understand why the Royals were inclined to take a risk.

  2. #42
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    Reaction to the trade was largely negative with respect to the Royals. That wasn't an unusual view at all. I didn't like it, but I understand why the Royals were inclined to take a risk.
    Honestly, I just feel bad for the fans. The Royals haven't won 90 or more games since the late 80s, I believe.

    They had such a good chance to build something that would invigorate the fan base for 4-6 years but impatience to compete now instead of 1-2 years from now may have crippled the franchise. Sure, they might be an okay team for awhile but it's now less likely that they'll be a very good team.

    But hey, good for the Twins, I suppose. Still, I'd rather see the Twins compete with the Royals in 2016-2018 than the Tigers or White Sox.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Honestly, I just feel bad for the fans. The Royals haven't won 90 or more games since the late 80s, I believe.

    They had such a good chance to build something that would invigorate the fan base for 4-6 years but impatience to compete now instead of 1-2 years from now may have crippled the franchise. Sure, they might be an okay team for awhile but it's now less likely that they'll be a very good team.

    But hey, good for the Twins, I suppose. Still, I'd rather see the Twins compete with the Royals in 2016-2018 than the Tigers or White Sox.
    Not me. I'd rather beat the White Sox, so I can post "HE GONE!"on the White Sox mbl sites when the Twins beat the ChiSox. To paraphrase Big Poopi: "I love to whoop the White Sox".

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Honestly, I just feel bad for the fans. The Royals haven't won 90 or more games since the late 80s, I believe.

    They had such a good chance to build something that would invigorate the fan base for 4-6 years but impatience to compete now instead of 1-2 years from now may have crippled the franchise. Sure, they might be an okay team for awhile but it's now less likely that they'll be a very good team.

    But hey, good for the Twins, I suppose. Still, I'd rather see the Twins compete with the Royals in 2016-2018 than the Tigers or White Sox.
    Well, first, Myers isn't the reason they have an imperfect future (to be kind). Hosmer and Moustakas have been pretty bad. Gordon has been up and down. Butler has been solid but not a superstar. Crow is a nice bullpen arm but he should've been more. They had so many prospects but only a handful - Perez has been a nice find behind the plate, Ventura could be an ace - have actually overachieved. They aren't quite as bad as Seattle but something isn't working there.

  5. #45
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarheeltwinsfan View Post
    Not me. I'd rather beat the White Sox, so I can post "HE GONE!"on the White Sox mbl sites when the Twins beat the ChiSox. To paraphrase Big Poopi: "I love to whoop the White Sox".
    I'd rather see the Sox become a perpetual 65 win team.

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  7. #46
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    The Royals seem to have the pitching almost there and no Moose and Butler isn't exactly hitting like Kurt Suzuki.

  8. #47
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    Brock has been very consistent on this topic. As have I. I think our key difference is:

    1. I was willing to trust the GM and coaches that felt all/some of the young guys were going to take a step forward, not backward. Brock was less sure of that.

    2. I was also willing to believe that the Royals needed to do something for the fans, in the next year or two, and not wait 3-4 years to move ahead. Frankly, I think sometimes people forget teams need to sell tickets, and not wait 4-5 years to do so. This was, imo, not just about what happens in 2016 and beyond, but the Royals needed to vastly improve their product. They were not going to sign big time FAs, so they did what they could. Not sure how Brock feels about that part.
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #48
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    2. I was also willing to believe that the Royals needed to do something for the fans, in the next year or two, and not wait 3-4 years to move ahead. Frankly, I think sometimes people forget teams need to sell tickets, and not wait 4-5 years to do so. This was, imo, not just about what happens in 2016 and beyond, but the Royals needed to vastly improve their product. They were not going to sign big time FAs, so they did what they could. Not sure how Brock feels about that part.
    This point I fully understand and somewhat sympathize with the front office over it.

    But the Royals were so close. So close. After nearly two decades of incompetent play, the fans could wait one, maybe two, more years. The Royals were going to get there in time, the front office just needed to show a little more patience.

    One of Terry Ryan's most redeeming qualities, I might add. Had he been stewarding the Royals during that time, I believe their future would be blindingly bright right now. Ryan has had stocked farm systems in the past (as he does now) but never anything on the level of what the Kansas City Royals had in 2012.

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Brock has been very consistent on this topic. As have I. I think our key difference is:

    1. I was willing to trust the GM and coaches that felt all/some of the young guys were going to take a step forward, not backward. Brock was less sure of that.

    2. I was also willing to believe that the Royals needed to do something for the fans, in the next year or two, and not wait 3-4 years to move ahead. Frankly, I think sometimes people forget teams need to sell tickets, and not wait 4-5 years to do so. This was, imo, not just about what happens in 2016 and beyond, but the Royals needed to vastly improve their product. They were not going to sign big time FAs, so they did what they could. Not sure how Brock feels about that part.
    In two years if the Twins are in a similar boat - their top prospects haven't proven anything yet but they believe they will - I doubt many here would laud them for sitting on their hands and not adding a player of significant need to help the club.

    The Royals made this move as a way of showing faith in their young talent. Was it risky? Sure, but not as much as has been overblown in this thread. They got a proven, innings eating, ace for a prospect gamble. No matter how much risk it is that Shields will leave there is every bit as much risk that Myers goes Moustakas on Tampa.

    Was it REALLY aggressive? Sure. Stupid? No, not even close. As a counter example - Ryan did preach patience. And was patient. And how'd that turn out for us? We never even tried to make the move that might have been a difference maker until the bitter end.

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  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    In two years if the Twins are in a similar boat - their top prospects haven't proven anything yet but they believe they will - I doubt many here would laud them for sitting on their hands and not adding a player of significant need to help the club.
    Ryan would probably flip Butler for a prospect, as he should. It's what he did with Span and Revere when the opportunity arose.

    Again, I'm a firm believer in prospect Pokemon. Catch 'em all.

    I have yet to hear anyone say the Twins should have traded Miguel Sano for David Price four months ago, yet that's exactly what Moore did last season (and Price is a younger, better version of Shields). He was trying to push a team to a 20+ win improvement season over season. That's not a risk, that's laying your ass on the line and hoping the stars align with the deed to your house sitting on Hard Eight.

    On the other hand, the Ervin Santana acquisition was fantastic. It was a roll of the dice with limited downside. He didn't sacrifice anything of note to take a chance on a guy improving... Not much different than the Phil Hughes signing, when you get right down to it. If you want to improve a team without sacrificing the future, that's how you do it. Roll the dice on guys rebounding, make a few smart FA acquisitions, and keep the farm intact.

  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Ryan would probably flip Butler for a prospect, as he should. It's what he did with Span and Revere when the opportunity arose.

    Again, I'm a firm believer in prospect Pokemon. Catch 'em all.

    I have yet to hear anyone say the Twins should have traded Miguel Sano for David Price four months ago, yet that's exactly what Moore did last season (and Price is a younger, better version of Shields). He was trying to push a team to a 20+ win improvement season over season. That's not a risk, that's laying your ass on the line and hoping the stars align with the deed to your house sitting on Hard Eight.

    On the other hand, the Ervin Santana acquisition was fantastic. It was a roll of the dice with limited downside. He didn't sacrifice anything of note to take a chance on a guy improving... Not much different than the Phil Hughes signing, when you get right down to it. If you want to improve a team without sacrificing the future, that's how you do it. Roll the dice on guys rebounding, make a few smart FA acquisitions, and keep the farm intact.
    I don't think there is a question that KC was likely going to lose that trade. Most everyone in baseball thought that the Rays got the better end of the deal. The Rays don't make bad trades.

    Although the trade put KC in a win now approach when they weren't ready I fail to see how Will Myers was going to lead them to the playoffs. It was a huge risk pinned on the hope that the offense would improve slightly and with better pitching push them close to a playoff spot and with some baseball god luck push them into the playoffs. It was a faith based approach that most everyone outside KC couldn't see happening. It failed miserably but did get them over 500 for a change.

    As a fan I can understand why Moore did it. They have been down so long and needed a winning season. Something to change the perpetual loser mantra. A way to give the fans a watchable season.

    As an analyst the move made little sense. They can't afford to pay to keep players for long and there core is getting older. The team appears to have some solid pitching prospects coming up and they could have used Myers years to start rebuilding the roster. One player isn't going to make or break the Royals but in the long run like most everyone predicted they would have been better off not making that trade unless of course Myer never makes it.

  14. #52
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    The Royals haven't made the playoffs since the year of my birth, 1985!!!! Think about that for a second.

    They finally get a stacked farm system, what's wrong with making a push for the playoffs? They were playing meaningful games in September, eventually finishing 10 games over .500. If it wasn't for Hosmer playing like complete ****e in the first half of the year, and all their various injuries, who knows what would've happened?

    Currently the Royals are 1 game behind the WC. Myers is currently striking out in 25% of his PA's. I don't think the fans thought he was the savior of the franchise, I bet they're just happy to be playing meaningful ball.

  15. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatt Crapps View Post
    The Royals haven't made the playoffs since the year of my birth, 1985!!!! Think about that for a second.

    They finally get a stacked farm system, what's wrong with making a push for the playoffs?
    They missed. That's what's wrong with it.

    And teams usually miss the playoffs when it requires a 20 game swing from the previous year.

    Swap out Myers for Shields last year and the Royals are an 84 win team according to the WAR adjustment, as opposed to the 86 games they actually won.

    1-2 more years won't kill a fanbase that hasn't seen the playoffs in almost three decades.

    Nobody is answering this question: should the Twins have traded Sano for Price? If not, why are you advocating what Moore did in KC? It's pretty much the same situation. A 20 game swing to make the playoffs, the Twins picked up Nolasco and Hughes, which are decent comps for Santana. The Twins had Joe Mauer (a calibre of player KC did not have), and a smattering of young players.

  16. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post

    Nobody is answering this question: should the Twins have traded Sano for Price? If not, why are you advocating what Moore did in KC?
    Obviously no one wants that (although now that he's injured maybe he never makes the majors).

    The opposite point is that the FO know more about their players than we do. So it might be a bad trade or it might not, also depending on how the season plays out. KC can still make the playoffs this year. Myers might be Frenchy 2.0.

  17. #55
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    1. I think the Royals have/had A LOT more young players on the roster, unlike the Twins who are pretty old for how bad they are.

    2. That led the Royals to believe they were on the upswing, and were 5-10 wins better just from internal improvement of existing players.

    3. They had more young players to bring up, that would add another few wins.

    4. That gets you to your theoretical boundary for where you would consider the trade, doesn't it?

    5. The Twins aren't there with young players. They have 1 guy that has come up from the minors (Dozier) and contributed for more than a month or two.

    6. A 3B is harder to find than a corner OF.

    7. Given all that, no, I would not deal Sano.

    8. Would you deal Meyers if you felt assumptions 1-3 were correct?
    Lighten up Francis....

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  19. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    KC can still make the playoffs this year. Myers might be Frenchy 2.0.
    They won't make the playoffs unless they find a way to post a team OPS much higher than 15th in the AL.

    And it's going to require them to give up another prospect in trade to make that happen, in all likelihood.

    So now they're down Myers and Prospect X and James Shields still leaves after the season.

    As for Myers, even with his struggles he's still looking to be an adequate starter for the Rays, not to mention that he tore the cover off the ball last season on his way to a Rookie of the Year award.

  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    2. That led the Royals to believe they were on the upswing, and were 5-10 wins better just from internal improvement of existing players.

    3. They had more young players to bring up, that would add another few wins.

    4. That gets you to your theoretical boundary for where you would consider the trade, doesn't it?
    2. I don't make assumptions about player performances and unless that player has established a benchmark of performance and I certainly don't recommend betting on it.

    3. Sure, if it works out. Again, assumptions.

    4. Nothing was preventing them from making the same or similar trade in June if they were a 30-30 team at that point and Myers was superfluous to the organization (highly unlikely).

  21. #58
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    It sucks they didn't make it last year, but they were actually selling out games in the 2nd half of the season. If just a few things go right for them during the year, they're in the playoffs with Shields, Erv, and a stacked bullpen.

    I would not want the Twins to have traded Sano. He plays 3b (how many franchise 3b are there in the league?) and the Twins had the worst rotation in the history of the professional baseball. The Royals actually had some pieces in place..I'll be rooting for them this year.

    If Myers is OPS'n .900+ for the forseeable future, clearly that would suck for the Royals. Maybe he'll continue to flame out like this year. But he's a corner OF, not the end of the world. Maybe they can get something for Shields at the deadline if injuries and disappointment continue to drag them down. But again, if I'm a Royals fan, I'm ok with the move. Agree to disagree.

    And man, what the hell has happened to Billy Butler? I'm convinced the KC franchise was cursed after Denkinger's missed call.
    Last edited by Fatt Crapps; 05-23-2014 at 02:07 PM.

  22. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatt Crapps View Post
    It sucks they didn't make it last year, but they were actually selling out games in the 2nd half of the season. If just a few things go right for them during the year, they're in the playoffs with Shields, Erv, and a stacked bullpen.
    In 2012, the Royals drew 1,739,000 fans.

    In 2013, the Royals drew 1,750,000 fans.

    Adjusted for league attendance, they actually went backward in attendance.

  23. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Ryan would probably flip Butler for a prospect, as he should. It's what he did with Span and Revere when the opportunity arose.
    That's not what a contending team does though. We spent a decade doing what you suggested and we had some fun seasons and good division winning teams, but we also never went over the top and made a move to make a difference. You know I don't believe in the idea that big trades make for World Series wins, but I do believe big moves at the right time can catapult a team to the next level.

    The reason why you play Pokemon with prospects is because they often fail. So dealing one good one and some decent ones for a healthy, known commodity isn't the villainous move you are making it out to be.

    For all the bluster on this move you've put on here, you're advocating a system of doing thing that yielded less than a handful of playoff wins and eventually bled dry into the awfulness we know now. So the real risk here was whether the guys they believed in would pan out vs. continuing a cycle of hopelessness.

    That isn't so clear cut as you are trying to make it out to be.

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