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Thread: Wait . . . What did Gardy just say?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Two months (maybe less). Lots of walks. A bit of luck. Still, one could argue he's been dominant. But it's possible that people real close to the situation believe he's a shade less than dominant.
    And those people real close to the situation have proven in the recent past that they are masters at 'shaded" obfuscation, too...

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Well said. You don't have to expect him to insult Correia, but there is zero reason to mention the AAA guys in the process.
    My best guess is Gardy did have one reason why he responded in that way, I would bet he's bombarded with off-camera questions on when this or that AAA guy is getting the call-up. This cuts that whole topic off at the quick.

    And it seems clear that this is one area where Gardy has zero say on personnel decisions and defaults to the party line, much like his comments in the wake of Nishioka being forced back into the lineup for the Nishi swan song tour.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Two months (maybe less). Lots of walks. A bit of luck. Still, one could argue he's been dominant. But it's possible that people real close to the situation believe he's a shade less than dominant.
    Fine....but why throw him under the bus? It's hypocritical to say "Gardy shouldn't be expected to call out Correia" and then he literally does the same thing just moments later about a bunch of guys he's not even seeing every day!!!!

    You want him to back Correia? Fine....he didn't even do that. He talked about his payroll number and then dogged some important prospects. It's indefensible as a tactic and incredibly poor personnel relations.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    And it seems clear that this is one area where Gardy has zero say on personnel decisions and defaults to the party line, much like his comments in the wake of Nishioka being forced back into the lineup for the Nishi swan song tour.
    But it's times like this that muddle the notion we often hear that Gardy has last say on the 25 man roster. This non-defense of starting Correia sounds forced because he'd rather not be doing it. So it appears that control might not really be there. (And then there are situations like Bartlett that just scream Gardy...so hell if I know)

    Either way, it's his job to field those questions in a responsible way. That's what being the manager partly entails. (And if he's going to be irresponsible...I wish he was harsher on the veterans and not on the kids as he typically is)

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I chalk this up to Gardy being Gardy, defending a struggling vet publicly.

    I hope no one in the front office listens.
    I don't mind publicly defending a struggling vet (at least not that much - I wouldn't mind if Gardy said something a little different, like "We're paying him a lot of money and have a lot of expectations for him. He knows we have those expectations, he shares those expectations, and we believe he will get it done.")

    However, what I do mind is, in contrast, the long-time criticism of struggling younger players, many of whom with more talent and upside than the struggling veterans. Sometimes this criticism is done directly by Twins on-field or upstairs management, and sometimes it is done through favored proxies in the press corps. It seems to be in contrast to the style of teams like Tampa, Texas and Oakland, who have had good success at plugging in new players. The criticism of young players also seems to delay or prevent their success. (For another recent local example of publicly criticizing young players, see Smith, Tubby.)

    In summary, I don't mind publicly defending a struggling veteran, even if he's struggling to achieve his usual mediocre results, but I really don't like the contrasting behavior of publicly criticizing struggling young players.
    "Where's the Crede?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by minny&paul View Post
    I'd feel better if Gardy said "interestingly, if you trust fip.
    Are you sure that Gardy does not think that Fip is the first name of the T-wolves new (old) coach?
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  9. #87
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    If people think leaving KY in the rotation is a good idea, fine with me. I have no interest in debating this anymore. Good luck winning those games. If the argument is that young players struggle when they first come up, that seems like an argument for calling them up sooner, so that next year, they are good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If people think leaving KY in the rotation is a good idea
    Um. I suspect that this was a Freudian slip...
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  13. #89
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    25 and 21 when someone else starts the game besides Correia? WOW! I doubt any of us were aware of that until just now. Any way you want to play it, that's a pretty bold number that's hard to argue with. Before I say any more, please let me be clear about two things.

    1) I didn't hear Gardy's comments. I didn't hear the tone of his voice. I also don't know if he was upset, goaded, tired, or anything else. I only have the words to read.

    2) Nothing mean or personal, but I don't want Correia pitching for the Twins.

    That being said, I really don't understand any fuss made over Gardy's comments. Rather, I see reactions to his comments being interpreted by devoted and sometimes frustrated and impatient fans. I mean, really, break it down. What did he say that is in any way inaccurate?

    Is Correia currently part of the rotation? Yes. Is he being paid to do so? Yes. Will he be paid even if the Twins cut bait tomorrow? Yes. All reality until otherwise. Defending a veteran and a nice guy? Maybe. Might also be a blunt motivation signal to Correia to earn his keep.

    He's aware of the guys in AAA and where they are? God, I sure hope he is! If he isn't getting updates and scouting reports then there is a serious dysfunction somewhere. The guys in AAA have had their ups and downs? No matter talent, projectables and quality seasons, is there something disparaging in this comment? No. It's simply the truth about a group of talented youngsters, chiefly May, Meyer and Darnell in their first or full AAA action. About a month and a half worth of AAA to be precise. Simply reading boxes and TD game reports will show you there is greatness with at least a little inconsistency here and there.

    Long term are these guys all probably better than Correia? Absolutely! No question! And I can't wait to see them! But as Duluth fan pointed out, the Twins traditionally make mid-season promotions for their prospects, sometimes later. Is pitching the balance of June, or so, going to do anything to damage the development of these guys? Or might they get more starts, more innings, smooth out some things, gain even more confidence?

    After three lousy and disappointing seasons, the Twins are trying to build on that 25-21. They are in rebuild, and they know it. And they know Correia isn't part of the future. There will be promotions and changes coming. I think they are simply trying to be competitive best they can, continue to build something, and are hesitant to just jump ship and flail the remainder of the season by just plugging in young rookies for the sake of playing them. But more to the point, I simply don't see anything in Gardy's words that are inflammatory unless you want to read them that way.

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  15. #90
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    Sorry, I don't get the outrage on this. The decision to eat the contract and cut him is on the GM, not Gardy. He probably shouldn't have phrased it that way, but if you expected him to even start to throw Corriea under the bus, that was never happening.

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  17. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If people think leaving KY in the rotation is a good idea, fine with me. I have no interest in debating this anymore. Good luck winning those games.

    If the argument is that young players struggle when they first come up, that seems like an argument for calling them up sooner, so that next year, they are good.
    Bingo! Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

  18. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    So the sooner they are up, the sooner they can adjust and contribute, I would think. I do agree that fans over rate prospects, but it it's impossible to be worse than the worst.....
    Idk whats ole Vance up to these days?
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  20. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    I've followed baseball since 1961, and there have been plenty of Terry Felton types. This generally happens because replacements aren't available. I understand the impatience to make a move, since we have what appear to be good alternatives, but I also can accept the possibility that giving Correia every last chance to right the ship may not be so ridiculous. Maybe they see things that lead them to believe the AA guys would struggle here, or maybe they they think Correia isn't that far from getting on track to where he was last year, when we would have been pleased with him as our 5th best starter.

    ANyway, back to what Gardy said. I believe most fans, like me, would regard his comments as having been fairly innocuous, a little informative about the alternatives, and and not at all disparaging about the guys in AAA.
    The Twin base their opinions on how a pitcher throws in the minor league and not their statistics?

  21. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He's the worst qualifying pitcher in ERA. How bad does he have to be before replacing him is prudent?

    .
    Franklin Morales appreciates your eyesight.
    ERA as the definative statistic for pitching? Really? Why not argue wins and losses define the pitcher? I am not defending Correia, but kind of irritated that poor arguements on this thread.

    Did you you look who had the third worst qualified pitcher ERA and if so shouldn't this thread be about getting rid of 2 underperforming starters?

  22. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Franklin Morales appreciates your eyesight.
    ERA as the definative statistic for pitching? Really? Why not argue wins and losses define the pitcher? I am not defending Correia, but kind of irritated that poor arguements on this thread.

    Did you you look who had the third worst qualified pitcher ERA and if so shouldn't this thread be about getting rid of 2 underperforming starters?
    Tell you what....why don't you find me a metric that puts Correia anywhere near "good". Whatever you want to pick you might be able to show a bit of bad luck but still a bad starter.

    He's not part of the future and not helping the present, I could care less which stats you want to pick out of personal preference, none of them are going to be a ringing endorsement for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    25 and 21 when someone else starts the game besides Correia? WOW! I doubt any of us were aware of that until just now. Any way you want to play it, that's a pretty bold number that's hard to argue with. Before I say any more, please let me be clear about two things.

    1) I didn't hear Gardy's comments. I didn't hear the tone of his voice. I also don't know if he was upset, goaded, tired, or anything else. I only have the words to read.

    2) Nothing mean or personal, but I don't want Correia pitching for the Twins.

    That being said, I really don't understand any fuss made over Gardy's comments. Rather, I see reactions to his comments being interpreted by devoted and sometimes frustrated and impatient fans. I mean, really, break it down. What did he say that is in any way inaccurate?

    Is Correia currently part of the rotation? Yes. Is he being paid to do so? Yes. Will he be paid even if the Twins cut bait tomorrow? Yes. All reality until otherwise. Defending a veteran and a nice guy? Maybe. Might also be a blunt motivation signal to Correia to earn his keep.

    He's aware of the guys in AAA and where they are? God, I sure hope he is! If he isn't getting updates and scouting reports then there is a serious dysfunction somewhere. The guys in AAA have had their ups and downs? No matter talent, projectables and quality seasons, is there something disparaging in this comment? No. It's simply the truth about a group of talented youngsters, chiefly May, Meyer and Darnell in their first or full AAA action. About a month and a half worth of AAA to be precise. Simply reading boxes and TD game reports will show you there is greatness with at least a little inconsistency here and there.

    Long term are these guys all probably better than Correia? Absolutely! No question! And I can't wait to see them! But as Duluth fan pointed out, the Twins traditionally make mid-season promotions for their prospects, sometimes later. Is pitching the balance of June, or so, going to do anything to damage the development of these guys? Or might they get more starts, more innings, smooth out some things, gain even more confidence?

    After three lousy and disappointing seasons, the Twins are trying to build on that 25-21. They are in rebuild, and they know it. And they know Correia isn't part of the future. There will be promotions and changes coming. I think they are simply trying to be competitive best they can, continue to build something, and are hesitant to just jump ship and flail the remainder of the season by just plugging in young rookies for the sake of playing them. But more to the point, I simply don't see anything in Gardy's words that are inflammatory unless you want to read them that way.
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  24. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Did you you look who had the third worst qualified pitcher ERA and if so shouldn't this thread be about getting rid of 2 underperforming starters?
    I think there is a significant difference between eating the remainder of a 2-year contract when in the 2nd year and eating the remainder of a 4-year contract while in the 1st year.

    Just the economic reality.

  25. #98
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    Don't see the fuss. Either he turns it around or he doesn't. If he doesn't after the next 2 or 3 starts you go to option B. That would have him out of here around the end of the month and you have another 2 to 3 weeks to see which of the AAA starters should be promoted.

  26. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Tell you what....why don't you find me a metric that puts Correia anywhere near "good". Whatever you want to pick you might be able to show a bit of bad luck but still a bad starter.

    He's not part of the future and not helping the present, I could care less which stats you want to pick out of personal preference, none of them are going to be a ringing endorsement for him.
    Excuse me for thinking you were capable of putting forth a better argument to get rid of Correia. If not being part of the future is a criteria for being on the roster then get rid of 1/3 of the team. Don't bother to sign Morales. Cut Willingham now. Nunez, gone. Deduno is over 30, he is not the future either. Get rid of him, too.
    If ERA is your criteria then you ought to be talking about getting rid of Nolasco for a while, too. Gardenhire can't rip on Correia because the prize free agent that will be paid for 4 years is performing equally bad. Micro thinking is not going to help anyone on this board view why the Twins are doing what they are doing. On the other hand, one could easily think that the under performing pitchers get a litle dl time so they can do a Pelfrey on them. It is not the Twins MO to rag on veterans.

    As a back of the rotation starter both fip and WAR put Correia as a back of the rotation starter. That is what he was signed as, that is what he gives them.

  27. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    As a back of the rotation starter both fip and WAR put Correia as a back of the rotation starter. That is what he was signed as, that is what he gives them.

    He's 8th worst in xFIP. His .6 WAR makes him basically a replacement level player. When you're basically a replacement level player then you can default to other factors in replacing him....like any investment in him has zero payoff for the team. There is no long-term investment to make. There is no trade value to invest in. This isn't a good pitcher gone bad who needs time to sort it out. This is a bad pitcher gone worse and we have other replacement level guys we can try out and statistically have high odds of being at least slightly better.

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