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Thread: Article: When Will Josmil Pinto Be Sent Down?

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Gonna have to disagree with your police work there norm.

    We have Trevor Plouffe, Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia and Brian Dozier on line two for ya. The Twins let plenty of young players take there lumps in the majors. I think the reality is that Pinto, though a nice player, just doesn't hit enough to be an everyday DH in this league. However, if he can at least prove to be a somewhat decent defensive catcher, he has the potential to be one of the better hitting ones in the league.

    I think the Morales signing says that the Twins want to make a run at it this year, and I for one am very happy for that.
    Partly true, but only out of practicality. It remains a half in, half out operation to my mind. If Gardy could run out a veteran lineup of Suzuki, Kubel, Doumit, Carroll, Willingham, etc, he probably would.

    If the Twins make this a race with all these old guys, I'll be cheering too, so save me a seat on the bandwagon

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  3. #22
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    TD seems to rarely come to a consensus on things, but one point that was made loud and clear on the debate over the interesting handling of OF depth in the early parts of the season was the importance of every spot on the 25-man. Right now IMO, Pinto>all Twins minor league position players for spot 25, and Pinto >> all Twins minor league catchers.

    Someone interpreted the Morales signing as "young players aren't going to play and struggle at the ML level the rest of this year." My interpretation is "let's try to win some games and make the AL Central interesting." If you're trying to win, you assemble the best 25-man at your organization's disposal, and you put the best lineup(s) out there day in and day out. It just so happens that (unfortunately) Pinto is a member of the organization's 25 best players, but not one of their best 9. Fortunately, he has a great bat and plays a position that requires the starter to be spelled with greater frequency than any other position. If we're not seeing Pinto a few times a week, we'd have to watch Fryer or Herrmann behind the plate. I know which of the three I'd choose.

    Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.

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  5. #23
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDean View Post
    TD seems to rarely come to a consensus on things, but one point that was made loud and clear on the debate over the interesting handling of OF depth in the early parts of the season was the importance of every spot on the 25-man. Right now IMO, Pinto>all Twins minor league position players for spot 25, and Pinto >> all Twins minor league catchers.

    Someone interpreted the Morales signing as "young players aren't going to play and struggle at the ML level the rest of this year." My interpretation is "let's try to win some games and make the AL Central interesting." If you're trying to win, you assemble the best 25-man at your organization's disposal, and you put the best lineup(s) out there day in and day out. It just so happens that (unfortunately) Pinto is a member of the organization's 25 best players, but not one of their best 9. Fortunately, he has a great bat and plays a position that requires the starter to be spelled with greater frequency than any other position. If we're not seeing Pinto a few times a week, we'd have to watch Fryer or Herrmann behind the plate. I know which of the three I'd choose.

    Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.
    Great post.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    ...That with Morales here, and when/if Pinto goes down, Kurt's DH appearances this year are now likely going to be with him playing at catcher instead, and the Fryer/Hermann catching ratio per Suzuki would likely be even lower than the Suzuki to Pinto ratio of 71.5%-28.5%. Probably no better than 20% or maybe just once a week, if the Twins stay competitive (knowing Gardy). I calculated using the Zuke-Catching-at-5-of-6-games measure for the remaining games, which would put Zuke on the 131 pace (counting the 4 games at DH).
    Since May 8 (after which Pinto's playing time dropped dramatically), Suzuki has started 21 of 30 games at catcher (113 per season pace). Only 2 DH appearances during that time.

    I think 70/30 is a safe estimate for the split, assuming Pinto stays up and starts leveling off offensively. I too could see it going up to 80/20 if Pinto gets worse or if Fryer/Herrmann take his place, especially if Suzuki keeps hitting and we stay in the neighborhood of contention.

  7. #25
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    • Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 4m
      Gardy(smiling): "How many different ways are you guys going to ask it? I’m not answering any more questions on Pinto. We're working on it."


  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    • Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 4m
      Gardy(smiling): "How many different ways are you guys going to ask it? I’m not answering any more questions on Pinto. We're working on it."
    Mike Berardino @MikeBerardino · 15m

    Catcher's ERA this year:
    Josmil Pinto 4.72
    Kurt Suzuki: 4.31Run Average

    (all runs):
    Pinto: 5.43
    Suzuki: 4.40


  9. #27
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    Mike Berardino @MikeBerardino · 30m

    Josmil Pinto is 0 for 16 throwing out attempted basestealers. He has 5 errors, 3 passed balls and 6 wild pitches on his watch (18 games).

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDean View Post
    Pinto is on a trajectory almost identical to Dozier and Plouffe as far as talent/age/tools/defensive questions. IMO, Dozier and Plouffe made their best adjustments and developments at the ML-level over the last few years, but then I'm just a casual observer...coaches are paid for a reason.
    To be fair, Dozier and Plouffe were always used as everyday players (Plouffe albeit at different positions). 500+ PA (combined majors and minors) every season. Neither was asked to learn or adjust sitting on the bench. Who was the last Twins prospect or regular who broke into MLB in an extended bench role? Cuddyer 2004 maybe, but even he totaled near 400 PA. Admittedly it's a little trickier for a catcher, they generally don't have much positional versatility (should Pinto see some reps in the corner OF? 1B?). Probably why they were so willing to trade Ramos too (I was hoping they would deploy Ramos like they did Doumit just two years later).

    But I generally agree with you -- I'd keep Pinto in MLB for now, even as a backup.

  12. #29
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    Keep Pinto around, even as a backup. Between DHing once-ish a week (Morales "full time" DH, with maybe Dozier or Mauer or Hammer or Arcia getting an occasional day there) and catching 2-3 days per week, that seems sufficient for a 1st year catcher.

  13. #30
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Berardino's summary from today's pre-game presser:

    http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/20...e-a-rochester/

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Gonna have to disagree with your police work there norm.

    We have Trevor Plouffe, Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia and Brian Dozier on line two for ya. The Twins let plenty of young players take there lumps in the majors. .
    While Hicks has certianly been taking his lumps, that clearly seems to be a case where the team's hand is forced due to a lack of CF options. I think it's pretty well believed that he'll be sent to Rochester as soon as the roster allows for it.

    Plouffe and Dozier aren't exacly young, and they have been a big part of the team's success, I'm not sure why they would be considered for demotion. One could argue they Twins let Arcia take his lumps at the MLB level upon his return from injury, but again, they have no reason to demote him, he was crushing the ball and aside from OBP concerns, isn't exacly "lumped."

    Pinto is really the only young player that is struggling, though I could see the same decision loom for Santana once his honeymoon is over.

    Either way, in past year's, the Twins let Dozier and Plouffe work on their game at the MLB level and it seems to have paid off in spades both offensively and defensively. I'd prefer Pinto get the same treatment, though I understand the desire to keep the hot-hitting Suzuki in place for the sake of winning now.
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 06-11-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  15. #32
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Given the amount of time he's actually playing, sending him to Rochester in favor of Fryer isn't a bad thing. If I was Ryan, I'd be telling Gardy to play him more or I'm sending him down. I really don't care either day what happens, as playing more often (regardless of location) is the perscripiton.

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  17. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Given the amount of time he's actually playing, sending him to Rochester in favor of Fryer isn't a bad thing. If I was Ryan, I'd be telling Gardy to play him more or I'm sending him down. I really don't care either day what happens, as playing more often (regardless of location) is the perscripiton.
    No, it isn't--sending him down in favor of Hermann/Fryer is far worse than a bad thing.

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  19. #34
    This move is exactly what I hated about the Morales signing. I love seeing Morales in a (sloppy, untucked) Twins jersey, and he's a professional hitter. But it's more complicated to say whether his addition actually makes us a better TEAM. You can't say that for sure when you know Mauer/Morales have 1B and DH covered virtually every game, which means that corner outfield is occupied by two out of the following: Willingham, Arcia, Parmelee, and perhaps Nunez and a bunch of other former shortstops. It guarantees that Pinto HAS to catch, or he can't play. And so far, he hasn't been able to catch.

    (Mysteriously, I've heard the throwing out runners was the one thing he was GOOD at as a minor league catcher. So how do you "work" on that?)

    I 100% admit that even a rusty, overweight Kendrys Morales is a better DH than Pinto. But it forces us to play a poorer outfield defense, and leaves no flexibility to get major league at-bats for young players. Didn't we know going into the year that Willingham, Arcia, and Pinto would require extensive at-bats at DH because they were question-marks in the field? I want to see the young guys play, fail, and succeed. Winning 75 games instead of 72 by adding a rental player is nice for Gardy's legacy/sanity, but ultimately irrelevant to this team's rebuild.

  20. #35
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    Pinto sucks at catcher. He should work on his catching skills in Rochester.

  21. #36
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    The Twins are going for it this year. They can't go for it and develop struggling young players. Teams can't do both well. With no one running away in the central it makes some sense.
    Admire your optimism. That being said, if the Twins are being operated under this philosophy, then my hope would be that Dave St. Peter not be allowed to finish the day in his office. Ideally he would be escorted from the building and have his personal effects sent to him.

    The Tigers have the best rotation in the AL, and probably all of MLB. The Twins have one of the worst. The Tigers have arguably the best hitter in baseball and his 2.6 WAR at first base. Was a huge fan of Mauer the catcher, but the Twins have a replacement-level 0.1 WAR player at first. The rest of the lineups favor the Twins, but a healthy Austin Jackson will likely reverse that too.

    And the Twins trail the team in line for the last wild card spot by a run differential of more than 50.

    Pinto needs to split time with Suzuki for the rest of the month, and then become the starting catcher. That way, by the end of the season, the Twins will have some idea if they have a catcher when they contend for real, or if they need to find one elsewhere. And if they do send him down, it should be because he's over his head and incapable of learning at this level, not because they 'need' Suzuki in the lineup to be competitive.

    PS By my count, Pinto had 4 years of full season baseball and 2 years in rookie ball prior to 2014.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 06-11-2014 at 01:13 PM.

  22. #37
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    The Twins goal this year is to win. 75 wins isn't winning. It isn't progress either. It would only be progress if the players responsible for winning 75 games were a core of young players improving together.

    If the goal is winning, the minimum bar must be 85 wins. Anything less than that really isn't a contender.

    Failure to meet that goal should mean change of the on field and front office staffs.


    I will acknowledge the goal may be to evaluate where the team is in 6 weeks. At that point, trading off decline phase veterans and handing the bulk of the playing time to younger players like Pinto. Meeting that goal means actually trading the decline phase assets and a manager willing to play the younger players even when presented with veteran options.

    Goals need to be met. No excuses this year.

  23. #38
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    Have the Twins declared a goal other than "winning"?

  24. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    Pinto sucks at catcher. He should work on his catching skills in Rochester.
    Wouldn't he learn more from instruction from Terry Steinbach and Joe Mauer? Two guys who caught at the MLB level for 24 years combined?

  25. #40
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormJH1 View Post
    This move is exactly what I hated about the Morales signing. I love seeing Morales in a (sloppy, untucked) Twins jersey, and he's a professional hitter. But it's more complicated to say whether his addition actually makes us a better TEAM. You can't say that for sure when you know Mauer/Morales have 1B and DH covered virtually every game, which means that corner outfield is occupied by two out of the following: Willingham, Arcia, Parmelee, and perhaps Nunez and a bunch of other former shortstops. It guarantees that Pinto HAS to catch, or he can't play. And so far, he hasn't been able to catch.

    (Mysteriously, I've heard the throwing out runners was the one thing he was GOOD at as a minor league catcher. So how do you "work" on that?)

    I 100% admit that even a rusty, overweight Kendrys Morales is a better DH than Pinto. But it forces us to play a poorer outfield defense, and leaves no flexibility to get major league at-bats for young players. Didn't we know going into the year that Willingham, Arcia, and Pinto would require extensive at-bats at DH because they were question-marks in the field? I want to see the young guys play, fail, and succeed. Winning 75 games instead of 72 by adding a rental player is nice for Gardy's legacy/sanity, but ultimately irrelevant to this team's rebuild.
    I mostly disagree. There are more players on the bench than Pinto. When Fuld is healthy, he will relieve the corner guys some and Nuñez has shown he can hit enough and field sufficiently to get some time around the diamond. Parm gave the team a spark when he was recalled and could do it again. Sure, I want to see Pinto develop. I believe he is the future catcher for this team for the next few years at least. But to do that, he has to improve as a catcher. A month or two in Rochester might do him good and a better defensive second catcher would be a good idea.

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