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Thread: Mackey: Twins owner has '100% confidence' in Gardenhire and Ryan

  1. #21
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    I think Gardy and the rest of the staff will be gone after the year. Gardy has been good for Minnesota. He has had success. With anything in life, once you achieve something, you want more. As Twins fans, reaching the playoffs is a great goal every season. With the run of division titles they have put together, that is a great accomplishment. But not advancing in the playoffs recently has stung a lot of the fans including myself. We have had the taste of the playoffs but we want more. Unfortunately for Gardy, he and the rest of the staff are still dealing with the mess Bill Smith left us. In the early 2000s when we had the core of Hunter, Koskie, Radke, Pierzynski, and so on, we had Mauer, Morneau, Santana, Bartlett, Garza in the minors at different stretches in the minors so we could see the next wave. The team had a nice bridge between those players. Now, we see Sano, Dozier, Benson, Gibson as the next wave but there is no bridge to get to those guys. That is the fault of the front office and Bill Smith. I think Terry Ryan should stay even if Gardy gets let go or moves on at the end of the year. Terry Ryan has only had a few months to try to fill the void that Bill Smith left us and he has proved in the past to stock our minor league system with future major league players. As unfortunate as it is, we are still stuck with this mess and I think Gardy and the other coaches are aslo going to have to take the fall with Bill Smith.

    Did anyone else think it was very optimistic in Pohlads statement that if they play the next 20 percent of the games the opposite they will be at .500? I just don't see this group of guys able to pull of a stretch of 21-7. I am a Twins fan but I am also a realist.

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenser View Post
    Did anyone else think it was very optimistic in Pohlads statement that if they play the next 20 percent of the games the opposite they will be at .500? I just don't see this group of guys able to pull of a stretch of 21-7. I am a Twins fan but I am also a realist.
    LOL, I was just going to post on that. I about choked when I read that statement and to think that the owner would actually frame the current situation in that way is laughable.

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    From the bottom to the top, here are the different settings of the bar:

    1- Awful - always finishing toward the bottom one of the worse teams in the majors
    2- Mediocre - Hovering around .500
    3- Competitive - Having a winning record and ocassionally winning divisions
    4- Compatitive in the post season - Winning at least a few post season series, making in to the WS
    5 - Champion - Winning the World Series.

    Believe me, with the Twins being mostly at 1, a lot of people (Including yourself apparently) are happy with being at 2 and 3, like they have been the Gardenhire years. I understand and respect that opinion even though I do not feel the same way. So please understand that some of us are not ok with 2 and 3 and think that this group of people who are running the Twins are complacent and set the bar at 2 and 3 and they can only get there. Some of us want 4 and 5. You don't agree, but at least respect our opinions and perspective. Now that the organization has turned from 2 and 3 more into 1, a lot more people are unhappy... So it is all about perspective and whether you are ok with being a B and C student or you expect As (to give you another analogy)
    I respect your opinion and as long as I follow your "perspective" chart, of course I always want to be 5, to suggest any fans desire anything else is patronizing. The Twins have only been 5, twice, when exactly have they been a 4? They've never lost a WS, did I miss something?

    Just because this team hasn't had as much post season success as they would have liked does not mean they set the bar at 2-3, that is ridiculous, I'm pretty convinced their goal is to win.

    By my math you've been satisfied with the philosophical direction of the team for a combined total of 2 years, most other years prior to 2002 they have been a 1 or 2.

  4. #24
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    I think this is where I disagree with you. Gardenhire was a part of those winning teams, sure, but there's a myriad of players you should also be thanking for winning divisions. Gardy himself didn't win divisions, just as Gardy himself didn't lose in the playoffs.

    Either the manager has something to do with the outcome of the game, or he doesn't. And if he doesn't, then anybody can manage a playoff team.
    Agreed, it's mainly about the players, as long as we were giving so much blame to the manager I went along with too much credit. I don't believe the manager has that much to do with the outcome of the game once it starts, it's overblown. I'm not saying anyone can manage a playoff team or a regular season team, I'm saying the overall impact from one good manager to the next is negligible and mainly lies with who he has playing for him.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    I respect your opinion and as long as I follow your "perspective" chart, of course I always want to be 5, to suggest any fans desire anything else is patronizing. The Twins have only been 5, twice, when exactly have they been a 4? They've never lost a WS, did I miss something?

    Just because this team hasn't had as much post season success as they would have liked does not mean they set the bar at 2-3, that is ridiculous, I'm pretty convinced their goal is to win.

    By my math you've been satisfied with the philosophical direction of the team for a combined total of 2 years, most other years prior to 2002 they have been a 1 or 2.
    They were a 4 in at least 1965 and 2002

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rigney View Post
    I keep waiting for a Twins player to take a bat to a Gatorade bucket after yet another loss, but I can't imagine who on this team might have that much emotion. It sure ain't Joe or Justin...

    And, am I wrong in blaming Bill Smith for leaving the minor league cupboard bare? I've never seen the Twins with so few prospects.
    Amen to that. Where is the player who would stir up this team like Cuddyer, Torii or Thome?? This should be Mauer. Maybe it will be Dozier. Somebody has to do it.

    As to the current situation--we need to blame whoever has been making draft picks since 2005 or so. Unless I am missing somebody, our high draft picks over the last half dozen years are not in the majors and are not comparable to other teams. Yes Revere has been here as has Hendricks. Ramos is playing here in DC (the trade that probably got Smith fired). Garza has been around. Who else?? Anybody?? Our picks from 1995-2005 were not bad--Milton, Torii, Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, etc. Even Casey Blake. What happened. The guy in charge of drafts since 2005 (or 6) should be canned now!! TR needs to pick a guy this year who will be starting in Target Field in 2014--not some guy who will linger in Beloit, Ft Myers and New Britain.

    Gardy will be gone--I wonder if missing 3 days this weekend is a sign that he is planning to leave on his own at the end of the year.

  7. #27
    This is definitely on Bill Smith. Gardy might be gone at the end of the year. No sense in firing him during the season. I hope they keep Ryan around, he hasnt had much time to get this team back on track since Smith left the cupboard to bare.

  8. #28
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    I respect your opinion and as long as I follow your "perspective" chart, of course I always want to be 5, to suggest any fans desire anything else is patronizing. The Twins have only been 5, twice, when exactly have they been a 4? They've never lost a WS, did I miss something?

    Just because this team hasn't had as much post season success as they would have liked does not mean they set the bar at 2-3, that is ridiculous, I'm pretty convinced their goal is to win.

    By my math you've been satisfied with the philosophical direction of the team for a combined total of 2 years, most other years prior to 2002 they have been a 1 or 2.
    Actually you did miss something.

  9. #29
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    They were a 4 in at least 1965 and 2002
    I stand corrected, forgot about the WS loss before I was born and 2002 was under Gardy, I meant other than him. 2002 was an accident though because they originally set the bar at a 3, damn overachievers.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post
    The guy in charge of drafts since 2005 (or 6) should be canned now!! TR needs to pick a guy this year who will be starting in Target Field in 2014--not some guy who will linger in Beloit, Ft Myers and New Britain.
    Amen; but if you can TR who was in charge for those picks from 2005-7; he cannot pick anyone this year

    Speaking of picks who made them to the majors from 2005 on:
    2005: Garza, Slowey, Duensing, Tolleson, Burnett, Yonder Alonso (DNS), Dave Herndon (DNS), Rene Tosoni
    2006: Parmelee, Benson, Dinkelman, Manship, Andrew Oliver (DNS), Valencia, JD Martinez (DNS), Slama
    2007: Revere (but most of those kids are 22-23 years old)

    so not that horrible. Other than the facts that not many Ps made it, or they got rid of the ones who made it, and there are not any susperstars in the list
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAM DC Twins Fans View Post

    As to the current situation--we need to blame whoever has been making draft picks since 2005 or so. Unless I am missing somebody, our high draft picks over the last half dozen years are not in the majors and are not comparable to other teams. Yes Revere has been here as has Hendricks. Ramos is playing here in DC (the trade that probably got Smith fired). Garza has been around. Who else?? Anybody?? Our picks from 1995-2005 were not bad--Milton, Torii, Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, etc. Even Casey Blake. What happened. The guy in charge of drafts since 2005 (or 6) should be canned now!! TR needs to pick a guy this year who will be starting in Target Field in 2014--not some guy who will linger in Beloit, Ft Myers and New Britain.

    Gardy will be gone--I wonder if missing 3 days this weekend is a sign that he is planning to leave on his own at the end of the year.
    Couple points - Milton wasn't drafted by us - we traded Knoublach for him (and three others).

    Mike Radcliff was draft guru until Ryan resigned. Smith made Johnson draft guru. The drafts since 05 or so have been interesting. The 04 draft was widely praised at the time (BA rated it the #1 draft) but injuries to all 4 pitchers taken in the first round took the wind out of its sails. In 05, we took Garza, Slowey and Duensing. Not a bad draft. 06 was Parmelee/Benson and Valencia too. 07 was Radcliff's last draft. Generally, it was a pretty weak draft class. Revere was our top pick and he's been a pretty good pick if you compare him with the rest of that first round.

    Johnson took over in 08 and his drafts have usually been well received when it happened. His first draft he took two hard throwing pitchers and Aaron Hicks in the first round. 09 saw Gibson fall to us but he also spent several more picks on flame throwers. 2010 he grabbed Wimmers, who probably won't make it now, but also grabbed Rosario and Niko Goodrum, two intriguing lowball prospects. Last year Michael slipped to us and we also grabbed a few more hard throwers and a big HS power bat in Harrison.

    I'm honestly not sure what to make of these drafts. Ryan said Radcliff will be heavily involved in this years draft but, presumably, so will Johnson. I think the #2 pick is relatively hard to screw up. The other picks are going to be what makes/breaks the teams future.

  12. #32
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    First, it sounds like the Pohlad answered a question, not approached the subject. So for those thinking there is something telling by the subject being raised, I'd say "no, there isn't."

    Second, what little I know about the Pohlads suggests that their confidence isn't going to be shaken because of the results/crowds after a decade of success from Ryan and Gardenhire, especially considering Ryan hasn't been at the helm for most of the last four years. My gawd, look how long they stuck with Ryan in the 90s with ZERO success on his GM resume.

    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.
    Very good point. I know people don't like to hear small market but the Twins were the only small market team that remained competitive while bringing in a new nucleus of talent this last decade.

  14. #34
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    First, it sounds like the Pohlad answered a question, not approached the subject. So for those thinking there is something telling by the subject being raised, I'd say "no, there isn't."

    Second, what little I know about the Pohlads suggests that their confidence isn't going to be shaken because of the results/crowds after a decade of success from Ryan and Gardenhire, especially considering Ryan hasn't been at the helm for most of the last four years. My gawd, look how long they stuck with Ryan in the 90s with ZERO success on his GM resume.

    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.
    Part of the debate in this thread centers around what constitutes success, some, if not most, seem to think the Twins haven't been successful for many years because they have not reached the WS since '91. I think that is very short-sighted.

    I admire the way the Pohlads run this organization, the stability they establish is reassuring to the people who work for them and it breeds loyalty and a commitment to success. To suggest stagnation is to just make a broad assumption in the absence of any real knowledge or facts. I think the Pohlads are smart enough business people to recognize if their organization was stagnating and no longer growing, you don't get to where they are by coasting. They are also smart enough to know that there are ebbs and flows to everything and over-reacting when things ebb doesn't necessarily make things flow again any faster and perhaps comes with a heavier price.

    I agree with you John, I think the Pohlads would be right to stick with them, we're not the bloody Royals after all.

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    First, it sounds like the Pohlad answered a question, not approached the subject. So for those thinking there is something telling by the subject being raised, I'd say "no, there isn't."

    Second, what little I know about the Pohlads suggests that their confidence isn't going to be shaken because of the results/crowds after a decade of success from Ryan and Gardenhire, especially considering Ryan hasn't been at the helm for most of the last four years. My gawd, look how long they stuck with Ryan in the 90s with ZERO success on his GM resume.

    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.
    It also stings because the Twins were just built fancy new digs at taxpayer expense and don't have a major league quality team to put there.

    Some fans might feel they were sold a bill of goods when they were told the Twins would be more competitive with a ballpark that could draw in more revenue.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'm not a Gardy hater. I thank him for the Central Titles. He's a Twin and always will be. However, Gardy won't survive the year (or at least off season) and I have gut feeling that TR will be against a manager change and will leave on good terms as a secondary result of Gardy.

    Thrylos you get can get ready to celebrate.

    I won't be celebrating cuz I'm not anti.

    The franchise has fallen and it will take change to resurrect it.
    Not to crush the Central Division Titles that Gardy won, but it was because the whole division stunk and we came out on top. And everyone knows what happened once those great teams entered the playoffs.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I'm not a Gardy hater. I thank him for the Central Titles. He's a Twin and always will be. However, Gardy won't survive the year (or at least off season) and I have gut feeling that TR will be against a manager change and will leave on good terms as a secondary result of Gardy.

    Thrylos you get can get ready to celebrate.

    I won't be celebrating cuz I'm not anti.

    The franchise has fallen and it will take change to resurrect it.
    Can't wait to pop the champagne and celebrate the beginning of a new era in "Twins Baseball."

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    First, it sounds like the Pohlad answered a question, not approached the subject. So for those thinking there is something telling by the subject being raised, I'd say "no, there isn't."

    Second, what little I know about the Pohlads suggests that their confidence isn't going to be shaken because of the results/crowds after a decade of success from Ryan and Gardenhire, especially considering Ryan hasn't been at the helm for most of the last four years. My gawd, look how long they stuck with Ryan in the 90s with ZERO success on his GM resume.

    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.
    The situation now is completely different than it was in the '90s. Ownership made it clear then that payroll would be at the bottom of the league due to the stadium situation. The team is undeniably mid-market now. Ownership is in a bad position here because if they keep cutting payroll, it will only lengthen the rebuilding process and turn off fans, costing them money in the long-run. But attendance won't be good enough to support an average payroll, while also allowing for the standard amount of Pohlad profit-taking. There's also a different Pohlad in charge.

    Smith's firing was already an indication of how things have changed. I don't pretend to know exactly what ownership's tolerance levels are, but I'm certain it isn't comparable to the '90s.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Can't wait to pop the champagne and celebrate the beginning of a new era in "Twins Baseball."
    Classy, celebrating people losing their jobs.....classy.

  20. #40
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    A couple of points. The Twins still have a nice core of everyday players, if they are healthy. Rebuilding does not have to take years if the starting pitching can be fixed. That could take years but sometimes you add a Jack Morris, Scott Erickson has a career year, Tapani does more than most experts ever suspected he could and you win. Of course you might lose for the next ten years after that.

    Mostly, I think trading out the management team would be a mistake. These guys have won before, they have a number of pieces in place that should contribute to winning and changing management doesn't guarantee anything but change. Even if they find people who are good, that doesn't guarantee much. Cleveland arguably did as good a job assembling teams during the 2000's as did the Twins they just weren't as lucky.

    Right now the Twins haven't been too lucky. Injuries both to key major league regulars, and to many, many pitching prospects have derailed the Twins for now. If the Twins stay derailed for the next year or so, then yes serious changes need to be made. Now, a bit of patience is needed.

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