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Thread: Mackey: Twins owner has '100% confidence' in Gardenhire and Ryan

  1. #41
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    "This organization has not won a title or being competitive in the post-season for 21 years and this is a long time. Unfortunately, new fans who started following the Twins in the mid to late 90s are calling the recent years a success... It's all about perspective, memories and where you set the bar."

    Yup. For all the ballyhoo over the division titles (won relatively marginally over sub-par competition), 2014 will mark the longest AL pennant drought in team history. Gardy's legacy isn't as great as some think, and this organization, had it been able to shuffle the deck more wisely, had a championship core in the making. Unfortunately, the front office and the manager didn't get it done, and it's on them. I'm just hoping they won't be around to waste the nucleus that's developing in the low minors right now.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    First, it sounds like the Pohlad answered a question, not approached the subject. So for those thinking there is something telling by the subject being raised, I'd say "no, there isn't."

    Second, what little I know about the Pohlads suggests that their confidence isn't going to be shaken because of the results/crowds after a decade of success from Ryan and Gardenhire, especially considering Ryan hasn't been at the helm for most of the last four years. My gawd, look how long they stuck with Ryan in the 90s with ZERO success on his GM resume.

    Finally, I'll say that I think the Pohlads are right to stick with them. This franchise is in decline, not because of major mismanaging, but because of a natural cycle of success. In fact, I'd say just the opposite - that given their situation, the franchise has had much longer sustained success than we've seen by other team and their front offices. That's the reason why this stings so bad. (And possibly why the minor league coffers are so empty.) But I think they'll trust the Twins to the same management team to rebuild.
    The fact the question is even raised by legitimate media IS in itself telling. The fact Pohlad felt obliged to entertain the question even more so. And that whole subject isn't going to go away until the team turns around or something changes. Tickets for tonight's game can be had on Stub hub for less than a dollar. If you don't think Pohlad is concerned by that you're incredibly naive.

    Second, the idea that there is some sort of mandatory "success cycle" dictated by the laws of baseball or business is fantasy.

  3. #43
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    I thought 2006 was going to be our year. I was so excited when my son and I scored tickets for the first playoff game at the Dome against Oakland. Johan Santana was our starting pitcher, Oakland was the underdog team, and we were going to win the first round for sure...or so we thought. The Twins lost the series 3-0. Sometimes things just don't go the way you think they are going to go. There were many talented players on that team. I also thought last season was somewhat of a fluke with all the injuries, and hoped maybe for a .500 season this year. Even when we got off to the awful start the first week or two this season, I figured we'd turn it around, and finish about .500. I'm kind of laughing at all the WS references in this blog. Heck, I'd be happy if we just won a GAME. A winning series would put me over the moon. I don't want us to end up in multiple record books for being the worst team in history. Sometimes it's hard being a baseball fan.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Classy, celebrating people losing their jobs.....classy.
    Somebody would gain a job, Minnesota would get a Vikings stadium and the Twins would get another chance. Dude, are you Toby Gardenhire? This would explain why you could defend a guy with no talent. Sorry to hear your minor league dream ended...

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastOnePicked View Post
    "This organization has not won a title or being competitive in the post-season for 21 years and this is a long time. Unfortunately, new fans who started following the Twins in the mid to late 90s are calling the recent years a success... It's all about perspective, memories and where you set the bar."

    Yup. For all the ballyhoo over the division titles (won relatively marginally over sub-par competition), 2014 will mark the longest AL pennant drought in team history. Gardy's legacy isn't as great as some think, and this organization, had it been able to shuffle the deck more wisely, had a championship core in the making. Unfortunately, the front office and the manager didn't get it done, and it's on them. I'm just hoping they won't be around to waste the nucleus that's developing in the low minors right now.
    Finally, there is a wise man joining this subject. Take a note twinsnorth49 . That it's time for a reality check.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    From the bottom to the top, here are the different settings of the bar:

    1- Awful - always finishing toward the bottom one of the worse teams in the majors
    2- Mediocre - Hovering around .500
    3- Competitive - Having a winning record and ocassionally winning divisions
    4- Compatitive in the post season - Winning at least a few post season series, making in to the WS
    5 - Champion - Winning the World Series.

    Believe me, with the Twins being mostly at 1, a lot of people (Including yourself apparently) are happy with being at 2 and 3, like they have been the Gardenhire years. I understand and respect that opinion even though I do not feel the same way. So please understand that some of us are not ok with 2 and 3 and think that this group of people who are running the Twins are complacent and set the bar at 2 and 3 and they can only get there. Some of us want 4 and 5. You don't agree, but at least respect our opinions and perspective. Now that the organization has turned from 2 and 3 more into 1, a lot more people are unhappy... So it is all about perspective and whether you are ok with being a B and C student or you expect As (to give you another analogy)
    Shouldn't "Mediocre" by definition be in the middle of the scale? Especially when it's the overall average of the league (you know, cuz every game has one winner and one loser).

    Secondly, describing the Gardenhire years as 2 and 3 implies there's something missing in your list. They squeaked below .500 once in the first nine years and twice in the ten. Claiming 6 titles in a 5-team division over 10 years is "occasionally" is either deliberately misleading or unrealistic about what that means. It's three times the number that they are "supposed" to get. Did the first nine years where they won more games than 25 teams happen by accident while they were shooting for just .500?

    And finally, thinking that the "group of people running the Twins are complacent and set the bar at 2 and 3" as if that is their goal is simply ridiculous.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The fact the question is even raised by legitimate media IS in itself telling. The fact Pohlad felt obliged to entertain the question even more so. And that whole subject isn't going to go away until the team turns around or something changes. Tickets for tonight's game can be had on Stub hub for less than a dollar. If you don't think Pohlad is concerned by that you're incredibly naive.

    Second, the idea that there is some sort of mandatory "success cycle" dictated by the laws of baseball or business is fantasy.
    I'm sure refusing to answer the question wouldn't have caused any speculation or interpretation at all.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Parker Hageman View Post
    1500ESPN.com's Phil Mackey reported that Twins owner Jim Pohlad was on the field pre-game before the Twins/Angels contest. In response to the recent requests for the firings of many staffers, the owner said:



    You have to respect the owner's loyalty to his staff but you have to wonder, is it merited?

    I do question if it is merited as I question Gardy often, but I don't think Connie Mack could win with this groups lack of talent. The problem is we won for many years and don't have top end talent in AAA or AA. Management is either too dumb or cheap to get free agents to offset this. So, imo any manager we get with struggle with this team for the next three years.

  9. #49
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    Zero legit MLB players up from the minors in three years is on Ryan's drafts, not smiths. I don't get how people don't get that.
    Lighten up Francis....

  10. #50
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Finally, there is a wise man joining this subject. Take a note twinsnorth49 . That it's time for a reality check.
    Is that like a 'put that in your pipe and smoke it" type response because someone else shares your perception of reality? Whatever reality you live in is an angry one, that's for sure. Some good spin from your partner in crime there, but it's just that, spin.

  11. #51
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    I think the Twins need a change and I think that Gardenhire deserves our recognition for a job well done at the same time.

    Thats kind of oxymoronic I realize but I'm consistently random that way. We dont need to be genuinely hypocritical... We need someone with a tradition of innovation. Include me out if Gardenhire is your least favorite. I can accept rejection as I sit in my long shorts eating some jumbo shrimp contemplating Military Intelligence.

  12. #52
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    If want to criticize Gardy for the lack of postseason success, fine.

    However, it is ignorant and silly to dismiss and belittle the division titles on the grounds that the competition was weak.

    First of all, it wasn't always that weak. In 2006 for example, there were 2 other teams that won at least 90 games. Also, the Twins were frequently on paper less talented than their division counterparts. They started spending in 2010, but prior to that, they were consistently outspent by the Tigers and White Sox, often by large margins. (Have we forgotten already the years of bellyaching about the team being cheap?) In some of those years, the 'experts' had the Twins finishing dead last in the division, but they didn't.

    Second, even in weak divisions, getting to the postseason every year is not an easy thing to do. Gardy-haters always compare him to his predecessor, who was a great manager, but even TK wasn't able to win that consistently. In his 15 seasons, the Twins only finished better than 4th in their division 5 times. And it's not like their division was the strongest every year either.

    Yes, we would all like to have seen more postseason success. But the fact that we didn't does not mean, as suggested, that the last 10 years were a complete and total failure. By that logic, Meryl Streep's acting career between 1983 and 2010 was a failure because although she earned 13 Oscar nominations in that time, she never actually won.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I think the Twins need a change and I think that Gardenhire deserves our recognition for a job well done at the same time.

    Thats kind of oxymoronic I realize but I'm consistently random that way. We dont need to be genuinely hypocritical... We need someone with a tradition of innovation. Include me out if Gardenhire is your least favorite. I can accept rejection as I sit in my long shorts eating some jumbo shrimp contemplating Military Intelligence.
    If Bill Smith was still our GM, I'd probably actually agree. Smith and Gardy never were on the same page on how to build a team. But Gardy and Ryan seem to have a similar viewpoint. I'd let this second Ryan regime a run before firing the manager.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    However, it is ignorant and silly to dismiss and belittle the division titles on the grounds that the competition was weak.
    That belongs on my as-yet-nonexistant blog of the most common nonsense that somehow gets spoken as "fact" out here in the blogosphere. It's been coming up even more than usual lately and I keep meaning to play That Guy and dispute it, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to say it as succinctly and accurately as done in the quoted material above. So I'll just quote and give a +1. Is that how the kids are doin' it?

  15. #55
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    The Twins are rippable on many fronts, but the "weak division" argument isn't one of them. What are they supposed to do, move to the east coast? The Central has not been as strong as the other AL divisions during the Twins run, but the Twins can't be faulted for winning games against teams they're supposed to beat.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    The Twins are rippable on many fronts, but the "weak division" argument isn't one of them. What are they supposed to do, move to the east coast? The Central has not been as strong as the other AL divisions during the Twins run, but the Twins can't be faulted for winning games against teams they're supposed to beat.
    Yeah, the division thing is overplayed. Sometime between 06-08, the Twins had the best winning percentage in baseball against the AL East. Naturally, they had an overall losing record in 07. Someone at HBT, I think, did a study on the unbalanced schedule and found that, at best, it might be worth one extra win/loss in a season. Neyer linked it his last year at ESPN.

  17. #57
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    That belongs on my as-yet-nonexistant blog of the most common nonsense that somehow gets spoken as "fact" out here in the blogosphere. It's been coming up even more than usual lately and I keep meaning to play That Guy and dispute it, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to say it as succinctly and accurately as done in the quoted material above. So I'll just quote and give a +1. Is that how the kids are doin' it?
    I couldn't agree more, it might be the lamest argument out there, it's an excuse in the strong presence of actual fact.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    That belongs on my as-yet-nonexistant blog of the most common nonsense that somehow gets spoken as "fact" out here in the blogosphere. It's been coming up even more than usual lately and I keep meaning to play That Guy and dispute it, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to say it as succinctly and accurately as done in the quoted material above. So I'll just quote and give a +1. Is that how the kids are doin' it?
    ---Now that would be an awesome blog.

  19. #59
    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    Whoever makes the Pohlads the most money has their vote of confidence.

  20. #60
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    Yeah, the division thing is overplayed. Sometime between 06-08, the Twins had the best winning percentage in baseball against the AL East. Naturally, they had an overall losing record in 07. Someone at HBT, I think, did a study on the unbalanced schedule and found that, at best, it might be worth one extra win/loss in a season. Neyer linked it his last year at ESPN.
    You are correct in your assertion that they had a winning record against the A.L. East in 2007.

    However, I don't see how anyone can be unconcerned about the way the Twins are trending against the A.L. East:

    2002 15-22 40.5%
    2003 17-15 53.1%
    2004 19-19 50%
    2005 18-14 56.26%
    2006 22-10 68.8%
    2007 19-17 52.8%
    2008 13-16 44.9%
    2009 10-20 33.3%
    2010 14-17 45.2%
    2011 10-25 28.6%


    I understand that the East has gotten stronger overall and that there is generally more money available to those teams. But in the first half of that decade, the Twins beat up on the Rays and, to a lesser extent, the Blue Jays. They've never been good against the Yankees but held their own against Boston and Baltimore. In the 2nd half of that decade, they've had a winning record against only one team, Baltimore (19-15). I haven't had the heart to put in this year's totals yet.

    I find that cause for concern regardless of the unbalanced schedule.

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