Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 75 of 75

Thread: How much credit does Anderson get for Hughes

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Anderson deserves as much credit for Hughes and he does for Correia, Nolasco and Burton

    If you look at Hughes' numbers, you will see that he is pretty much the same pitcher he has been the last 3 seasons with 2 notable differences: He cut both his BB% and HR/FB to a third. I would guess to venture that the first is likely the result of not tinkering with a new pitcher every third week like he did when with the Yankees and maybe feeling more confident getting out of New York. I hope that the second is sustainable, but the league average is 10 and he is around 6. We shall see, but happy that he is finally catching up to his peripherals
    Except he isn't the same pitcher. He ditched his slider (according to fangraphs and Pitch F/X) and is throwing a cutter (a lot). These are substantial differences in how a pitcher is approaching the game and it probably wasn't Hughes doing it.

  2. #62

    Fond PA take.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post

    From 2002 to 2010 the Twins won the division 6 times in 9 years. In 2010, our primary rotation that season included such studs as Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano and Pavano. Guys like Fox, Manship and Burnett helped out. The pen was anchored by Capps and Rausch, Crain, Perkins, Guerrier, Duensing, and others.
    Thanks for taking me back to 2010. Fun season. This post is a great reminder of the utter average to below average pitching talent given to us from Mr Smith GM. I fondly remember listening to KFAN and having Paul Allen refer to Jon Rausch as "neck tattoo". Classic.

  3. #63
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,839
    Like
    177
    Liked 665 Times in 376 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    I cited objective facts that led to my view that Anderson is not likely to be a major factor in Hughes' success.
    Oh please. What is an objective fact about "Hughes is clearly a guy that takes the lead on his own approach"? That's a pile of manure that couldn't be any less like an objective fact if it tried to be. "Being new to the team" is a fact but is hardly one to draw much of a conclusion from.

    So explain to me again all these objective facts you have lined up for your opinion? Because it feels to me you just want to bash the team and you're cherry picking some (very poor) evidence to do that.

    If every situation is indeed different it's further evidence that we know very little about how that breakdown happens. Certainly if all we know is that he's "new" it's hardly enough to draw the kind of conclusion you did.

  4. #64
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    6,511
    Twitter
    @sethtweets
    Like
    68
    Liked 379 Times in 200 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think Anderson does a fine job with the talent he is given. How do we not know he didn't get them to overachieve? A 100+ ERA from Cole De Vries? 2.4 WAR season from Diamond? Duduno isn't completely useless. Rehabbed Burton and Fein.
    Agreed... a pitching coach can only work with the pitchers that he is given... All pitching coaches have their successes adn all of them have the guys that didn't work out underneath them. It's mostly on the pitchers.

    I've never been an Anderson guy, but it's hard to blame him for the last couple of years.

  5. #65
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
    Posts
    4,172
    Twitter
    @thrylos98
    Like
    36
    Liked 446 Times in 273 Posts
    Blog Entries
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    I've never been an Anderson guy, bu it's hard to blame him for the last couple of years.
    ok. Who do you blame then?
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
    http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/
    twitter: @thrylos98

  6. #66
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,112
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,588 Times in 825 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    Ok...here I go.

    I am not an apologist. Just a realist.

    I think a manager or coach, maybe more so in baseball than some sports, is treated much like a QB in football. When the team wins, the QB gets the credit. When the team loses, it's the QB's fault. Baseball is a team sport, never forget. But there are also a lot of one-on-one battles that take place. A pitching coach can't make a pitcher throw harder, or have more talent. What can he do? Well, he can increase focus. He can help repetitive motions and mechanics. He can suggest different grips that might prove better. He can move a pitcher to the left or right of the rubber for better results. He can deal with approach and psychology, getting the pitcher to believe in his stuff, trust his defense, change the order of his pitches thrown. He has an impact, but it also depends on the head and arm of the pitcher.

    Im not going to defend Anderson as the best pitching coach around. And if some of the moves the Twins have made over the past few seasons are a result of Anderson recommendations, (maybe, maybe not, don't know) then he bears as much blame as anyone in the FO for the past 3 seasons. It is very, very easy for critics to find blame and scapegoats where they will. But let's take a little deeper look at the 12+ seasons in regard to Twins pitching with Anderson as pitching coach.

    1) From his early days, a list of some of the pitchers Anderson has worked with: Radke, Santana, Liriano, Fiore, Guardado, Milton, Rincon, Romero, Trombley, Mays, Balfour, Hawkins, Crain, Guerrier, Nathan, Baker, Silva, Neshak, Perkins, Neshak, Reyes, Blackburn, Slowey, Breslow, Reyes, Pavano, Rauschenberg, Swarzak.

    A couple of these names are out of baseball now, but enjoyed their best success in a Twins uniform. A couple were injured and rebounded after rehab, and after they left the Twins. A couple had solid seasons after they left, not necessarily better, but left via FA. And those decisions are on Anderson?

    Santana was nurtured in to a multi Cy Young winner under Anderson's tutelage. Liriano was a top rookie performer before hurting his arm. (Undoubtedly Anderson's fault) Upon his return, he actually pitched very well in streaks. He pitched poorly for the White Sox, and it was reported he frustrated their pitching coach. Last year he rebounded and pitched very well for the NL Pirates. (Also Anderson's fault) And this year he has continued his Jeckyl/Hyde career.

    RA Dickey and Kyle Lohse? Please! Just as Hughes has found a new and successful home, Dickey left the Twins after ONE season, had 2 solid seasons before his Cy Young season. Lohse spent 5+ so-so seasons in Minnesota before leaving. He spent a poor season in '07 with the Reds and Phillies before a solid '08 season with the Cardinals, a poor season in '09, followed by a couple solid/good seasons. (Amazing how Anderson has the capacity to direct the FO to dump a pitcher who will have success 2 or 3 years after leaving the Twins)

    2) Pitching to contact. I am soooo tired of this concept. Does anyone understand what this means? Somewhere between now and two years ago, Anderson himself gave an interview about this subject. It has nothing to do with SO's. Anderson even addressed this issue. (I wish I could pull this interview out of the past!) What PTC means is throwing strikes! Trusting in your stuff and the defense behind you.

    Bull Durham and Crash Davis flashback! LOL

    Brunansky, (some claim Molitor as well, no objection on my part) gain accolades for the Twins currently working hard on counts and gaining walks to improve the offense and run production. But the Twins NOT waking batters has little relevance?

    Can we all at least agree that walks tend to kill?

    3) 2002-2010 with Anderson as pitching coach, the Twins AL ERA rankings were: 6th, 7th, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 11th, and 5th.

    2002-2010 with Anderson as pitching coach, the Twins AL rank for BB were: 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, and 1st.

    Even with the poor pitching we've endured the past 3 seasons, along with poor play and production overall, the Twins staff has still ranked 6th, 6th and 3rd in walks allowed.

    Even this season, with a high ERA that has been declining, (high mostly due to Pelfrey and Correia) our BB ranks second in the AL.

    From 2002 to 2010 the Twins won the division 6 times in 9 years. In 2010, our primary rotation that season included such studs as Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano and Pavano. Guys like Fox, Manship and Burnett helped out. The pen was anchored by Capps and Rausch, Crain, Perkins, Guerrier, Duensing, and others.

    We won 94 games that year with that rotation.

    Yeah, Anderson's 12+ seasons as pitching coach just reek of incompetance.
    I'm no Anderson fan but this is a great post.

  7. #67
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,664
    Like
    11
    Liked 54 Times in 35 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    ok. Who do you blame then?
    Whatever scout guessed wrong on Rainville, Fox, Johnson, Waldrop, Hunt, Gutteriz, Bayshore, and others. The scouting director who hired them, as well as the GM who hired the scouting director
    The coaches in the minors who obviously are inferior coaches since the coach is responsible for failures. The GM for hiring such lousy coaches. The team president for hiring the GM
    Trainers must be at fault for the injuries.
    The pro scouts have not done a great job at raiding other teams talent. Not every pitcher signed from outside the organization has done well. A scout watched an independent league team pitch. 2 starters from that team were signed. The Twins picked the wrong one.There are any of 100's of people to blame, why must it be fixated on one person as a fault? Is the talent evaluation and development system so simple that one person could do it?

  8. #68
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Posts
    1,044
    Like
    1,640
    Liked 489 Times in 285 Posts
    Doc:

    I've said some harsh words about Anderson but what I really don't understand is the pushback from some that he must remain a coach. In the face of losing seasons, and much diminished effectiveness IMO, why it is taboo to even discuss overhauling the coaching staff. I liked Leslie Frazier a lot but I understand why he was let go. He's made a great career for himself. I don't feel sorry for him. I'm still a Vikings fan.

    Dozier actually did credit Molitor. Calling it "night and day" from last year. Whether that was just Dozier talking freely or whether he really feels it's been a night and day difference having Molly around, I don't know. That link is somewhere.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Do you mean something like this?

    Haha, yeah something like that! And as the person in your blog wondered about how pitchers did after coming to the Twins, I saw something exactly like that too somewhere (I know, really helpful, right?). The results were not favorable.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
    Posts
    467
    Like
    220
    Liked 174 Times in 99 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    Doc:

    I've said some harsh words about Anderson but what I really don't understand is the pushback from some that he must remain a coach. In the face of losing seasons, and much diminished effectiveness IMO, why it is taboo to even discuss overhauling the coaching staff. I liked Leslie Frazier a lot but I understand why he was let go. He's made a great career for himself. I don't feel sorry for him. I'm still a Vikings fan.

    Dozier actually did credit Molitor. Calling it "night and day" from last year. Whether that was just Dozier talking freely or whether he really feels it's been a night and day difference having Molly around, I don't know. That link is somewhere.
    Hey Hosken,

    Thanks for the response/question and the opportunity to respond. I actually like the Leslie Frazier comparison, though its probably not entirely accurate in this example. Turns out Frazier just wasn't the guy, but Anderson has a long track record for winning teams with pitching staffs that have performed well. Again, 9 seasons and only once out of the top 7 in the league for team ERA. Once again, same 9 year span, the Twins staff finished out of the top 2 only one time in fewest walks allowed. His pitching staffs helped the Twins win 6 titles in those 9 years, and I want to say two trips to post season as a wild card? (Don't have info in front of me at moment)

    Hosken, the point isn't that Anderson HAS to be the pitching coach. One day, like all coaches, change will happen. The point is, why CAN'T he be the pitching coach? His staffs have performed. His teams have won. When he's had quality arms, those quality arms produced, in good and even outstanding ways. He's also taken a lot of lead, and if not gold, at least transformed it to silver and copper over the years. I brought up names that belong in both categories earlier, forgive a distraction and a spell correction error for a couple repeats and a blown name.

    I hear from detractors that they don't like him or believe in him. Ok, fair enough. But why? Is it because the Twins have let so many of his good arms leave over the years? Is it because there have been questionable to mediocre to bad signings at times? (If he has a responsible voice in these matters, then so be it, bad on him) Is it because we've had three awful seasons preceding this one and the team ERA was at the bottom of the league? Ok. But what kind of arms/talent was he forced to work with, at least in regard to the rotation? Additionally, said rotation and staff have no responsibility toward team injuries, bad defense, bad depth, poor hitting, lack of power or speed.

    To arbitrarily dislike him in this role, as I have read often from some, seems to defy basic common sense as well as statistics, and the basic law of "scoreboard". And unless my memory is failing me, I'm not sure I've ever even heard of an alternative other than maybe Cuellar, who is with the club now. A move I supported very strongly, I might add.

    So again, he doesn't HAVE to be pitching coach. But why CAN'T he be?

  11. #71
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    This thread wasn't really about pushback to keep Anderson as pitching coach. It was more about applying blame and credit equally. If you are going to blame Anderson for failing to make mediocre pitchers into a solid rotation/bullpen then you should also give credit when a pitcher shows an improvement. If you don't think Anderson (and pitching coaches) has that much of an influence on pitchers that improve then the same is true for pitchers that struggle.

    Thrylos's list is an awful use of statistics. At least half of the pitchers on there didn't make a meaningful contribution to their next team. Eyre... Seriously??? Some took half a decade before becoming a valuable member of another team. Balfour for example. There are probably 5 at most pitchers that showed significant and unexpected improvement after leaving the Twins.

  12. This user likes kab21's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    snepp (06-14-2014)

  13. #72
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
    Posts
    3,580
    Like
    199
    Liked 534 Times in 347 Posts
    Blog Entries
    32
    All the talk about pitching coaches kind of makes me go ....meh. Health is the big issue. If a pitcher is relatively healthy, they can take that big step forward--Balfour for example--if they are not, they fizzle in a hurry. My theory on Deduno's struggles is health-related. He's coming off "minor" shoulder surgery and guess what? He hasn't been as effective as last year. Diamond and Worley came off elbow surgeries in the '12-'13 off season and neither of them was close to what they had been before.

    The majority of pitchers have a very small margin for error. This is particularly true of guys who are a bit short on fastball velo. If their breaking pitches don't have the same bite, their effectiveness is gone.

    The Twins do their best to protect their pitchers' arms and I think they do a pretty good job of it. Injuries are going to happen, but they are minimized when guys are not overworked/abused and the Twins don't do that, as a rule. I look forward to seeing what Anderson or his successor is able to do with the more high-powered arms occupying the Twins' farm system.

  14. This user likes stringer bell's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Beezer07 (06-16-2014)

  15. #73
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    3,987
    Like
    103
    Liked 386 Times in 201 Posts
    If coaching doesn't matter as some of you claim, then please explain to me how Tom Emanski's teams won back to back to back AAU national amateur titles?
















    Oh what's that?














    Boxed.

  16. #74
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    142
    Like
    354
    Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by crarko View Post
    I seem to recall Dick Such wasn't exactly the darling of the fan base or media, either.

    I'd rate the catcher as being on equal footing with the pitching coach for in-game performance.
    Interesting point about the catcher's effect on a pitcher. I was never really impressed by Mauer's pitch selection, nor by his location selection. He's not a rah, rah guy either. If I were pitching, I'd want a catcher who mixed all my pitches up, who was an energetic encourager, and who could throw out base runners at a high rate, thereby keeping them from attempting to steal, thereby giving me one less thing to worry about on the mound. As much as I liked Mauer's bat in year's past, I don't think he was a pitcher's catcher.

  17. #75
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,112
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,588 Times in 825 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by tarheeltwinsfan View Post
    Interesting point about the catcher's effect on a pitcher. I was never really impressed by Mauer's pitch selection, nor by his location selection. He's not a rah, rah guy either. If I were pitching, I'd want a catcher who mixed all my pitches up, who was an energetic encourager, and who could throw out base runners at a high rate, thereby keeping them from attempting to steal, thereby giving me one less thing to worry about on the mound. As much as I liked Mauer's bat in year's past, I don't think he was a pitcher's catcher.
    If I was a MLB pitcher, I'd prefer to throw to the guy who knew opposing lineups like the back of his hand and prepared for the game. I wouldn't care whether the guy was vocal. In fact, it might irritate me if I felt he was deficient in another aspect of the job.

    It's really hard to say exactly how pitchers felt about Mauer behind the plate. His bat was an obvious asset so they may have overlooked some aspects of his game because of it. And it's really rare to hear pitchers disparage catchers at all; that's why most of us were surprised by Perkins' comments about Pinto.

  18. This user likes Brock Beauchamp's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    tarheeltwinsfan (06-25-2014)

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.