Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 72

Thread: Vance Worley surprised Twins wanted him to lead the rotation in 2013

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star crarko's Avatar
    Posts
    1,228
    Twitter
    @crarko
    Like
    156
    Liked 782 Times in 411 Posts
    I think they should fire everybody and hire me.
    Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay,
    I sleep all night and I work all day.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,759
    Like
    882
    Liked 859 Times in 553 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Sure to stir up controversy, for stating the facts as an act of love, BaggerVance goes 7 shutout innings, with 5 Ks, giving up 5 hits vs. the Marlins today.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Sure to stir up controversy, for stating the facts as an act of love, BaggerVance goes 7 shutout innings, with 5 Ks, giving up 5 hits vs. the Marlins today.
    That guy sounds pretty good. The Twins should try to trade for him

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
    Posts
    4,178
    Twitter
    @thrylos98
    Like
    36
    Liked 446 Times in 273 Posts
    Blog Entries
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Which front office in baseball is perfect?
    The one that wins a World Series that season.
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
    http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/
    twitter: @thrylos98

  5. This user likes Thrylos's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Hosken Bombo Disco (06-15-2014)

  6. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
    Posts
    1,045
    Like
    1,644
    Liked 489 Times in 285 Posts
    What might be interesting to me is the K/9 rate. Hovered around 7-8 with Phillies, dipped to 4-5 with Twins, back up to 7-8 during stint with Pittsburgh's AAA team. I just sent him a valentine on match.com so let's see if he replies back.

  7. #26
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Well...who was it that traded for him again?
    I'm missing the relevance of this question. Were the Twins supposed to clairvoyantly know that Worley would decide to be less professional about being traded than most players are?

  8. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    628
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    The one that wins a World Series that season.
    So every year there ought to be 29 GM and field manger jobs open as there seems to be you make mistakes you should be fired sentiment expressed by many.

  9. #28
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    The very second that someone in the Twins organization besides Bill Smith is held accountable for all of their vast mis-assessments of talent, personalities and Plan A and B options over the last 7 seasons, I'll be right there with you on Worley.
    You mean all those mis-assessments that are prevalent with every team over seven
    years? All those mis-assessments that get brought up all the time, while all the correct assessments, which are far more prevalent, go unmentioned? Are Fien and Thielbar mis-assessments? How about Hughes? Arcia?

  10. #29
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,861
    Like
    181
    Liked 668 Times in 377 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    I'm missing the relevance of this question. Were the Twins supposed to clairvoyantly know that Worley would decide to be less professional about being traded than most players are?
    Part of player acquisition is to get an idea of their personality make-up. One could argue the Twins disproportionately emphasize that area as well.

    It's hard to put the Worley acquisition as anything but a total failure. The overall deal might be salvaged, but this part of the trade was a complete blunder on the part of Ryan and company. And that's ok. It happens.

    All those mis-assessments that get brought up all the time, while all the correct assessments, which are far more prevalent, go unmentioned?
    When you almost lose 100 games three straight years...I don't think there are "far more" correct assessments going on. If that were the case I'm mystified how they turned that into cellar-dwelling for three years.

  11. This user likes TheLeviathan's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    USAFChief (06-15-2014)

  12. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    The Twins chose Bartlett, Pelfrey, Guerrier and Kubel over guys like Worley, Hendriks, Presley and Mastroianni.

    There may not be value in any of the 8, but the Twins went with the quartet of 30 year olds over any upside in that quartet of younger players.

    Rebuilding teams go the other direction. If the Twins aren't rebuilding, they need to be held accountable for winning.
    None of these 8 is relevant in a discussion about a complex, multi-year rebuilding effort. Rebuilding teams do precisely what the Twins are doing, even the Yankees these days. Which is to incrementally rebuild incrementally and live with the complaints from an impatient fan base regarding solutions that are a year away or haven't yet been a priority.

  13. #31
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Part of player acquisition is to get an idea of their personality make-up. One could argue the Twins disproportionately emphasize that area as well.

    It's hard to put the Worley acquisition as anything but a total failure. The overall deal might be salvaged, but this part of the trade was a complete blunder on the part of Ryan and company. And that's ok. It happens.



    When you almost lose 100 games three straight years...I don't think there are "far more" correct assessments going on. If that were the case I'm mystified how they turned that into cellar-dwelling for three years.
    I think we can trace the problem to two factors. The first is a long-standing systemic problem with what's called the sell discipline in the asset management business. This management group has been guilty, for many many years, of not extracting equitable returns from the assets they dispose. No examples needed, as the list is obvious and long. Second, the series of incredibly destructive trades made in the Smith era. Again, we know which ones they are.

    But the good assessments are still far, far more prevalent than the mis-assessments that get constantly raised.

  14. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    And it's still too early to call the Revere trade a bad decision, let alone a failed outcome, and those are two different issues. Also, it's unrealistic to expect any team to have the prescience to avoid a Worley situation.

  15. #33
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,759
    Like
    882
    Liked 859 Times in 553 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    What might be interesting to me is the K/9 rate. Hovered around 7-8 with Phillies, dipped to 4-5 with Twins, back up to 7-8 during stint with Pittsburgh's AAA team. I just sent him a valentine on match.com so let's see if he replies back.
    Yeah, I saw that, and I didn't want to pile on with the "love notes" in my post....
    Perhaps Vance was just living up to his nickname while with the Twins and just "bagging" it? (No doubt due to his "love" for the National League?)
    Last edited by jokin; 06-15-2014 at 08:17 PM.

  16. #34
    Twins News Team MVP
    Posts
    6,759
    Like
    882
    Liked 859 Times in 553 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    And it's still too early to call the Revere trade a bad decision, let alone a failed outcome, and those are two different issues. Also, it's unrealistic to expect any team to have the prescience to avoid a Worley situation.
    I don't think anyone is asking for prescience. Worley was clearly the proto-typical Ryan-type acquisition in a buy-low deal...both Worley and May were coming off of hugely disappointing seasons after showing great promise in the previous year. In hindsight, it's pretty clear that the Twins took a huge leap of faith into the bargain bin and made some wildly incorrect assumptions about Worley's make-up and overall commitment and health.

  17. #35
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,861
    Like
    181
    Liked 668 Times in 377 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    But the good assessments are still far, far more prevalent than the mis-assessments that get constantly raised.
    And yet you fully admit this team can't get sell-high, buy-low right. There have been a good share of positive assessments. There are also a very healthy share of poor ones.

    The very notion that this team could lose almost 300 games in 3 years and are doing things the right way the vast majority of the time strains my ability to take such a point seriously.

    Also, it's unrealistic to expect any team to have the prescience to avoid a Worley situation.
    So that makes them human like every other club? Worley was a mistake. They happen. To everyone. If we can't acknowledge that you're being every bit as bad as the people who hop in the Morales thread to troll what a mistake that was. It comes off as an agenda to defend the indefensible just as some attack the unassailable. Both sides of that factor into inane debates.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 06-15-2014 at 08:32 PM.

  18. #36
    Senior Member Triple-A Danchat's Avatar
    Posts
    432
    Like
    165
    Liked 33 Times in 24 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    What might be interesting to me is the K/9 rate. Hovered around 7-8 with Phillies, dipped to 4-5 with Twins, back up to 7-8 during stint with Pittsburgh's AAA team. I just sent him a valentine on match.com so let's see if he replies back.
    Worley isn't very good. However, there's just one thing that bothers me. The K/9 rate. For nearly every pitcher we have, it goes down. I don't know what our staff is doing, but I'm led to believe they are teaching them how not to throw strikeouts while decreasing walks. That may sound stupid, but it comes from our K numbers being so incredibly low and not close to the 29th team (at least in 2013). I know, we had pitch-to-contact-pitchers, but we also had Deduno, who they taught how not to strike out people. His K/9 dropped too.
    That's my one complaint. I just want our pitchers' K/9 to back to normal.

  19. #37
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    3,999
    Like
    104
    Liked 392 Times in 206 Posts
    Worley sucks

  20. #38
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I don't think anyone is asking for prescience. Worley was clearly the proto-typical Ryan-type acquisition in a buy-low deal...both Worley and May were coming off of hugely disappointing seasons after showing great promise in the previous year. In hindsight, it's pretty clear that the Twins took a huge leap of faith into the bargain bin and made some wildly incorrect assumptions about Worley's make-up and overall


    commitment and health.
    I don't agree with this at all, jokin. May is a top 10 prospect in our system and was a top 5 in Philly. And why wouldn't the Twins take a secondary asset like Worley? Why wouldn't they hope to occasionally get the type of performance from him like we saw yesterday? And who disagrees with the assessment that Revere ends up as a 4th outfielder, a defensive replacement, pinch-runner type suited best for the NL, whose career fizzles out as his speed diminishes? It's preposterous to suggest, right now, that the trade was a bad decision, or that the outcome of it is clear, at least for those of us that know the limits of our predictive capabilities.

  21. #39
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,606
    Like
    68
    Liked 380 Times in 233 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    None of these 8 is relevant in a discussion about a complex, multi-year rebuilding effort. Rebuilding teams do precisely what the Twins are doing, even the Yankees these days. Which is to incrementally rebuild incrementally and live with the complaints from an impatient fan base regarding solutions that are a year away or haven't yet been a priority.
    ONLY the Yankees "rebuild" the way the Twins do, going after aging vets. Except the Yankees do it with better quality aging vets. The other recent celler dwellers who are reversing their fortunes, Houston, Miami and Pittsburgh, gutted their teams of nearly every vet and went with young players.

    Your assertion that the people who aren't in favor of the "Yankee" rebuild are impatient is flat out wrong, getting these vets will probably win a couple of extra games each year, but those of us who want the vets flipped or cut understand and are willing to accept the longer, more fruitful rebuild.

  22. #40
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    874
    Like
    474
    Liked 84 Times in 63 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    And yet you fully admit this team can't get sell-high, buy-low right. There have been a good share of positive assessments. There are also a very healthy share of poor ones.

    The very notion that this team could lose almost 300 games in 3 years and are doing things the right way the vast majority of the time strains my ability to take such a point seriously.



    So that makes them human like every other club? Worley was a mistake. They happen. To everyone. If we can't acknowledge that you're being every bit as bad as the people who hop in the Morales thread to troll what a mistake that was. It comes off as an agenda to defend the indefensible just as some attack the unassailable. Both sides of that factor into inane debates.
    No need to strain yourself, Levi. We agree on two things: the Twins have been crappy hen it comes to disposing of players for equitable value. This is an "assessment" problem that would be hard to dispute. We also agree that they've had a "healthy share" of poor assessments. I will submit that, if you exclude the barrage of Smith mis-assessments, their track record on everything else- trades, drafts, player development, international signings, scrap heap resurrections- has been better than most teams. I submit that, when you add up all the Arcia's, all the Mauers and Buxtons, all the Fiens and Thielbars, all the Willinghams and Hughes's, that my point may not stretch your ability to take it seriously.

    My biggest gripe in these threads is that people resort to regurgitating stuff about the same handful of past sins without adding some balance. That people draw these harsh, hyperbolic, dramatic conclusions about what a mistake demonstrates about the FO or manager. That people constantly recite the W-L record as the only true indication of what's going on. That people come to these premature and extremely negative conclusions about things like the Worley situation. And that people look under every stone for an excuse to be critical and are so stingy with their praise.

    The Worley trade is perfectly defensible, Levi. Worley may or may not end up being a "mistake", as you so vehemently conclude. I happen to think you're very premature, but concede you may be right eventually. What's NOT defensible is declaring you're taking an unassailable position, thereby rendering a different view as not to be taken seriously, right? I haven't defended the Worley trade outcome as successful because I don't know what it is, even if you do. I've defended the decision-making as reasonable, and your reaction feels extreme to me.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.