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Thread: Yohan Pino to start Thursday / Deduno moved to pen

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    This is just not correct. Hughes' fielding independent numbers confirm his improvement. Pino's do not.

    Stranding over 90% of baserunners is not a skill. It cannot be maintained by any pitcher on the planet at any level. Having a lower BABIP than Mariano Rivera is not a sustainable skill for a 29 year old journeyman who throws 85.

    The resources are out there to learn about why those things are true. It's not productive to argue against uncontested facts.
    The Twins appear to be in denial about all of these basic facts, and this after all of that public gnashing of teeth about the alleged "mystery" of who to call up. And this after calling up Albers, Walters, DeVries, et al....all of whom demonstrated unsustainable "mastery" of AAA.

    Oh BTW, the facts are even worse for Pino in terms of his age, he actually turns 31 before the end of this year. Maybe you were thinking of our other prize 29-year-old journeyman, Kris Johnson?

  2. #82
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    The only trade value Pino is going to have is in a package with someone else headlining the trade (dear god let that end up being Correia).
    I'm sure plenty of people would have said that in re: to Butera as well, if Pino can show some success/value in the majors, he will have trade value.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownTwinsFan View Post
    Okay, strip away what the future may hold and what our projections are for M and M, and who right now, is the best starter on the Red Wings? Who has the best line? I get the eagerness to get M and M started in the bigs, get them acclimated so that next season they can hit the ground running. But who right now holds the best record in Rochester? For me, that's who you try next, regardless. That's the hot ticket. And maybe because Pino has been a minor league journeyman he busts out here. But I'm all for thinking that calling up the one who has done the best right now, this year, is the move to make to help us right now.
    Except that Pino is not doing the best in Rochester right now, your assumptions about who's best at Roc. don't fly under simple, less than rigorous, scrutiny. Calling for calling up M & M isn't overblown eagerness, it's just basic logic based on pretty overwhelming data points- deserved promotions for both M & M, and also for what's best for the team, both for now and for the long-term.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    The Twins appear to be in denial about all of these basic facts, and this after all of that public gnashing of teeth about the alleged "mystery" of who to call up. And this after calling up Albers, Walters, DeVries, et al....all of whom demonstrated unsustainable "mastery" of AAA.

    Oh BTW, the facts are even worse for Pino in terms of his age, he actually turns 31 before the end of this year. Maybe you were thinking of our other prize 29-year-old journeyman, Kris Johnson?
    I don't understand the DeVries hate, he did pretty admirably for the Twins in 2012 where he started 16 games, gave them a 4.11 ERA and 100 ERA+, was he ever a long term answer? Of course not, but he filled in just fine.

    Albers was a nice story and gave the Twins a couple nice starts, what harm did he cause them? (He also had a 100 ERA+ in his time with the Twins)

    If anything the Twins have been pretty good at figuring out a way to bring up short term stop gaps who will actually be a benefit to the team.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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  6. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Except that Pino is not doing the best in Rochester right now,
    Pino by far has the best results at AAA based on his ERA, WHIP, and k/bb rate. That really can't be refuted.

    Nobody here is saying Pino is some better long term answer then May/Meyer, they are simply saying he has more then earned a spot start chance, and gives the Twins a better chance to win then if DeDuno was starting tomorrow.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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  8. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm sure plenty of people would have said that in re: to Butera as well, if Pino can show some success/value in the majors, he will have trade value.
    Imagine what we can get for Eric Fryer?....and unlike Pino, he actually has some limited major league experience. Why, this team is just chock full of previously unclaimed reclamation projects with secret trade value- just waiting to be scooped up by other teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Pino by far has the best results at AAA based on his ERA, WHIP, and k/bb rate. That really can't be refuted.

    Nobody here is saying Pino is some better long term answer then May/Meyer, they are simply saying he has more then earned a spot start chance, and gives the Twins a better chance to win then if DeDuno was starting tomorrow.
    Exactly.

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  11. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Pino by far has the best results at AAA based on his ERA, WHIP, and k/bb rate. That really can't be refuted.

    Nobody here is saying Pino is some better long term answer then May/Meyer, they are simply saying he has more then earned a spot start chance, and gives the Twins a better chance to win then if DeDuno was starting tomorrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownTwinsFan View Post
    Exactly.
    Exactly what? As we've all-too-frequently seen in the recent past (Albers, Walters, DeVries), you are quoting the least-important, least-predictive stats to construct a house of cards argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Pino by far has the best results at AAA based on his ERA, WHIP, and k/bb rate. That really can't be refuted.

    Nobody here is saying Pino is some better long term answer then May/Meyer, they are simply saying he has more then earned a spot start chance, and gives the Twins a better chance to win then if DeDuno was starting tomorrow.
    If we knew, or even thought this was a spot start, nobody would be too worked up about it. Nobody from the organization has stated that is the goal, this is speculation at this point.

    Further, most of the comments defending this move have pointed out that Pino is the most deserving guy and the one who helps us win now. After these comments have been pushed back by suggesting luck has played a role in his 2014, it seems now settle down this is a spot start comments have come out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Pino by far has the best results at AAA based on his ERA, WHIP, and k/bb rate. That really can't be refuted.
    May has hit fewer batters than Pino. That really can't be refuted. But just like your facts, it doesn't matter.

    Your false claims of Pino's superior performance have been refuted over and over. You are factually wrong.

  14. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Imagine what we can get for Eric Fryer?....and unlike Pino, he actually has some limited major league experience. Why, this team is just chock full of previously unclaimed reclamation projects with secret trade value- just waiting to be scooped up by other teams.

    Pino, Kris Johnson, and Fryer for Trout and what else from the Angels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I don't understand the DeVries hate, he did pretty admirably for the Twins in 2012 where he started 16 games, gave them a 4.11 ERA and 100 ERA+, was he ever a long term answer? Of course not, but he filled in just fine.

    Albers was a nice story and gave the Twins a couple nice starts, what harm did he cause them? (He also had a 100 ERA+ in his time with the Twins)

    If anything the Twins have been pretty good at figuring out a way to bring up short term stop gaps who will actually be a benefit to the team.
    I prefer Miami's way of calling up guys who actually offer more than stop-gap benefits. If the team was competing for a division, then guys like Albers and Pino coming up to shore up a short-handed staff makes sense- but since they both have no place in the Twins future, in this case- not so much.

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Exactly what? As we've all-too-frequently seen in the recent past (Albers, Walters, DeVries), you are quoting the least-important, least-predictive stats to construct a house of cards argument.
    As I mentioned bfore, Albers and DeVries actually had effective results in the majors if you have an ERA+ of 100 as a starter you are basically an average SP, which actually means you are an asset and helping your team.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I prefer Miami's way of calling up guys who actually offer more than stop-gap benefits. If the team was competing for a division, then guys like Albers and Pino coming up to shore up a short-handed staff makes sense- but since they both have no place in the Twins future, in this case- not so much.
    The team is competing for a division, in addition to being "in the hunt" they just dropped a nice chunk of change on Morales.

    In re: Albers etc, who else would you have preferred called up last year at that point? Gibson/DeDuno etc had there chances as well.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  21. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    it seems now settle down this is a spot start comments have come out.
    Not true, it has been said by folks on here that if he pitches well then yes, he will earn more starts, but if he bombs his first start then it is highly likely the Twins would bring someone else up.

    It is very obvious that it is just a stop-gap thing, nobody from the org needs to state it because it is indeed obvious.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


  22. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Pino, Kris Johnson, and Fryer for Trout and what else from the Angels?

    I'll say it here first....gotta throw in Duensing if you want anything of real value

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Not true, it has been said by folks on here that if he pitches well then yes, he will earn more starts, but if he bombs his first start then it is highly likely the Twins would bring someone else up.

    It is very obvious that it is just a stop-gap thing, nobody from the org needs to state it because it is indeed obvious.
    Your first statement is from another planet than your second statement.

    Second, a quick look through past comments has found you calling a BABIP of .219 lucky and fueling a pitchers performance. Another found that we were not going to get anything but a C level prospect for Suzuki, Willingham, or KC.

    Today Pino, with a .222 BABIP is "has by far the best numbers" due to his ERA and we are somehow going to get something in return for Yohan Pino after a month if he pitches well.

    I am sure we could find one where you pointed towards FIP as better than ERA, but this is really a waste of time.

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  26. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    As I mentioned bfore, Albers and DeVries actually had effective results in the majors if you have an ERA+ of 100 as a starter you are basically an average SP, which actually means you are an asset and helping your team.
    Uhhh, why aren't these assets pitching and helping a team in the major leagues right now?

  27. #99
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    The logical side of me agree's with Tobi and the group that wants to invest MLB experience in Meyer and May. The sentimental side of me wants to give the long-shot Pino a chance. I am a sucker for the underdog. There is a reason they are called underdogs though, because their chances at sustained future success are slim.

    Being the logical person I am I should ignore the sentimental side but it is hard for me not to cheer for Pino. I doubt he will have sustained success but at 30 I would like to see him pitch and see what he can do. He never gave up on himself. I think that is worth a chance even if it means M&M have to wait just a little longer.

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  29. #100
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    Your first statement is from another planet than your second statement.

    Second, a quick look through past comments has found you calling a BABIP of .219 lucky and fueling a pitchers performance. Another found that we were not going to get anything but a C level prospect for Suzuki, Willingham, or KC.

    Today Pino, with a .222 BABIP is "has by far the best numbers" due to his ERA and we are somehow going to get something in return for Yohan Pino after a month if he pitches well.

    I am sure we could find one where you pointed towards FIP as better than ERA, but this is really a waste of time.
    At what point did I ever say that luck wasn't playing a part in Pino's numbers?

    At what point did I eve say Pino would bring back a "good" player in a trade? I just simply said if he succeeds in the MLB he would indeed have trade value.

    I think FIP is a better indicator of future success but it is far from perfect as well. You are distoring this debate, under no circumstance am I saying Pino is better for the Twins long term or more talented then Meyer/May etc. I am saying that he has earned his shot at a spot start on the Twins due to his ERA (which is some luck driven), WHIP (Some luck driven, but his k rate and bb rate help) and his great k/bb rate (is this luck as well?)
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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