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Thread: Well, the good news

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    "Brad Eldred" Revisited.
    Thanks for reopening an old wound.

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    Bark's Lounge (06-18-2014)

  3. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Thanks for reopening an old wound.
    Think of it as a warm embrace. I was there on the battlefield with you, I still have PTSD from that experience.

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    ashburyjohn (06-18-2014)

  5. #23
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Let's not derail this thread into an indictment on management please.

  6. #24
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    The real good news is I just saved 15% on my car insurance in 15 minutes.

    *sponsored post brought to you by Geico USA
    I just saved more than that in half the time.

  7. #25
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    On a more serious note, not saying I'm happy to lose back to back games to Boston by 2-1 scores, but I'm not as sore as I should be. The reason is simple, we played good ball and got some tremendous outings from Hughes and Gibson. I can't even be mad at Fien. Hey, sometimes the other teams score. It happens. It stinks, but it happens. Fien has been excellent for us. Even Perk blows one here and there.

    The last few years, we just haven't been competitive like we are now folks. There's a real light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not an oncoming train!

    The offense has been scuffling a bit, and inconsistent. The pitching staff, as a whole, has done the job. Boy do I think we're close to ripping off a run or two. One more SP, one or two youngsters getting their shot in the pen and performing well, and just a little more consistency in the offense and I see a .500 team here.

    I agree whole-heartedly with the theme of this thread. Sano and Buxton's injuries just completely stink! But just look at the Rochester pitching staff, and some others lower at AA and A. Vargas, Walker and Polanco for some of the young position players, Rosario back and hitting like he was born to it, the lift/gift Santana has brought us. There is a lot to be excited about.

    Personally, I want to re-sign Morales for next season, giving Vargas and others more time. Not opposed to Willingham for another year if he keeps it up, or another FA for 1-2 (7-10M prob) as a LF stopgap.

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  9. #26
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    They were further from top ten in runs scored than in runs allowed last year. This is the team many of us expected to see.

  10. #27
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    To docbauer, I want the young guys up, not mediocre old guys. Time to move on.

  11. #28
    Senior Member Double-A zenser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pleiss View Post
    The pitchers only gave up 5 runs in 3 games, I'll take that each and every series. Scoring 2 runs in 3 games is the bigger issue.
    If you would have told me before the Boston series that Boston would only score 5 runs, I would have bet that we would have swept them, not us getting swept.

  12. #29
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    To docbauer, I want the young guys up, not mediocre old guys. Time to move on.
    Mike, I want the young guys as well. And I can hardly wait for them to arrive.

    I also want to look in to my crystal ball and see that Vargas will be ready to be our primary DH from day one next season, and be a top vote getter for rookie of the year. I want to see that Rosario can start for us in CF, hit well, get on base some, show power and speed and be our stop gap there for a while, also finish amongst the ROTY top spots. I want to see right before my eyes that Santana will be ready to pretty much do what he's done this season but settling in at SS. Pinto will catch at least 70% of Twins games next season and have people talking about how he would be a top ROTY candidate but he's just got too many ML AB's. I want to know, see it laid out for me, that Sano and Buxton will be feady the second half of 2015, September at the latest, and never look back. I want to know that Walker and Polanco are just behind, also ready by September. I want the crystal ball to show me May and Meyer are fixtures in the rotation next season, both possible ROTY candidates, unless either has too many IP this season. I also want to see some of our young relievers step up to take a spot or two to further deepen and strengthen the bullpen.

    But I also want to see the Twins compete and win, make smart moves, and promote the kids when they are most ready. Promote them to a solid team and a quality, competitive environment. That's why I'm in favor or Morales being re-signed for next season. Suzuki also, hopefully as a backup/share time C. And we'll probably need to bring in a decent LF for a year or two. Another halfway decent CF/4th OF candidate would be prudent as well. And with Willingham assumably gone, and Correia gone, plus being under the magic spending numbers to begin with, the Twins can afford to make said moves while not blocking kids when they're ready.

    And none of has that crystal ball. And I don't want to do what Houston has done, what the Twins did in the early 80's, and just blow up the roster and promote a bunch of kids from AA, and go down those 90 plus loss seasons again. I think we've all had enough of those lately.

    My thoughts.

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  14. #30
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    Sign me up for going young like they did in 82-83 and 99-00.

    With each loss, I know I will see hope in the upside of the young players.

  15. #31
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    This year is much more enjoyable than the last three. At least we can see hope for the future. We may come as close to the amount of losses we have had but there is real progress. I do agree with Doc that keeping Suzuki and at least one of Willingham or Morales makes sense. Twins have the money and they are proven middle of the order hitters. Arcia, Pinto and ALL the rest of the prospects including Buxton and Sano need to force their way into the lineup. I do not agree that the Twins should clear the roster for them. The prospects should force their way on to the roster.

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  17. #32
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    I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

    Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years
    Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)
    Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons
    Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.
    Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts
    Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

    The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.

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  19. #33
    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

    Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years
    Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)
    Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons
    Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.
    Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts
    Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

    The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.
    Jorgen, understand your perspective completely! And I well remember when the Twins cut bait and just promoted all those young guys and struggled with them. If the Twins deep and talented milb system, say two years ago, was where they are now, especially with Sano and Buxton fully healthy, I'd probably be right there with you buddy. Promote them all and run with it.

    But the Twins, as constructed currently, despite some flaws, are not a bad team. They are competitive, have some talented youngsters, and a group of mid-aged veterans who are solid. I don't think it's a question, with the general makeup of this team, of youngsters having to "force their way" on to the roster. Rather, I think it's a team begining to rebound after three bad and disappointing seasons, begining to show real life and a competitive nature. They've been patient with several youngsters, and continue to retool the roster as they continue along. And we haven't seen all the moves yet, I believe, that this season will bring.

    As your numbers show, those were very talented ball players who put up winning numbers AFTER a time. Is there anything wrong with constructing a solid overall roster, similar to now, breaking in the youngsters, and still being competitive without just blowing things up?

  20. #34
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    I don't think they can do both well. They may improve to mediocre but while the young players improve (if given regular at bats and starts) the older players decline and the team stays mediocre.

    If they are going to play a franchise record number of 30 year olds, they need to be more than competitive. They need to contend because as a group they will decline next year and the younger players will not have been given the time to struggle and improve.

  21. #35
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    It does seem odd that they are one of the older teams, and one of the worst teams.....that's a bad combination, imo. while they seem much better this year, outcome wise, they are still one of the worst teams in the league......
    Lighten up Francis....

  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    Jorgen, understand your perspective completely! And I well remember when the Twins cut bait and just promoted all those young guys and struggled with them. If the Twins deep and talented milb system, say two years ago, was where they are now, especially with Sano and Buxton fully healthy, I'd probably be right there with you buddy. Promote them all and run with it.

    But the Twins, as constructed currently, despite some flaws, are not a bad team. They are competitive, have some talented youngsters, and a group of mid-aged veterans who are solid. I don't think it's a question, with the general makeup of this team, of youngsters having to "force their way" on to the roster. Rather, I think it's a team begining to rebound after three bad and disappointing seasons, begining to show real life and a competitive nature. They've been patient with several youngsters, and continue to retool the roster as they continue along. And we haven't seen all the moves yet, I believe, that this season will bring.

    As your numbers show, those were very talented ball players who put up winning numbers AFTER a time. Is there anything wrong with constructing a solid overall roster, similar to now, breaking in the youngsters, and still being competitive without just blowing things up?
    Doc, the following below is reprinted from another thread, but I think appropriate to contrasting your main thrust. Isn't there some kind of happier roster-makeup-medium between the current Twins and current Marlins?:


    Originally Posted by amjgtIt's one thing to say that Pino isn't the right call because he's 30 and is not "part of the future" and then to argue for Andrew Heaney, but you're using Heaney in the "I don't have any faith in Pino argument"

    Pino's numbers, across the board, are superior this year and were also superior to Heaney yesterday.

    Who do I have more faith in next week? Pino. Not Heaney.
    Uhhh, Pino was in his 8th year of AA or AAA ball counting this season, are we really sure that being LHP is the only difference? Heaney is 23 and it's reasonably logical that he hasn't yet approached his ceiling, and that isn't just my opinion:

    ScoutingBook Combine Ranking (6/20/2014): #21
    MLB.com/MiLB.com Season Preview: #29
    Scout.com/FOX Sports: #41
    ESPN: #34
    Minor League Ball (Sickels): #38
    Baseball America 2014: #30
    Baseball Prospectus: #30


    Feel free to put all of your faith into Pino, but there are multiple reasons the Twins have never had a Starting Pitcher make his major league debut at age 30.5 before. You're missing the point of my argument. The Marlins aren't debuting any 30 year old career minor leaguers, they are breaking in a passel-full of quality pitchers with high upside at very young ages- including yesterday, promoting their #1 prospect to the already-good Starting Rotation.

    FYI, the Marlins currently have 9 pitchers, age 24 or younger on their 25-man or DL. And that total rises to 12 on the 40-man. By contrast, the Twins have- ZERO, ZIP, NADA under-24 pitchers on their 25-man, and all of two, both age 24, May and Tonkin, on their 40-man roster.
    Last edited by jokin; 06-20-2014 at 02:14 PM.

  23. #37
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Moderator's note: If this turns into a rehashing of the recent uncivil Pino discussion, there will be repercussions.

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  25. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    I'd take the every year for the Twins (99+96+96 is not an easy feat.) But it does not happen with every team. Some teams might have an off year here and there. Very rare to be awful 4 years in a row, even rarer to keep the front office and management intact in these situations and pretty much unique to the Twins, for fans to be ok with the situation.

    On pace for 88 losses this season, btw. Nothing that does not stink or is remotely excusable (in a valid way) about that.
    Which team does not go through a stretch were there is not hitting or a strech where the pitching sucks? The OP talked about streches of bad months, not years.

  26. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

    Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years
    Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)
    Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons
    Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.
    Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts
    Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

    The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.
    How many posts were there saying Hicks should be in the minors and not the majors?
    You stick with a player you think has upside. That is why they stuck with the previously mentioned players

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