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Thread: International Watch: Huascar Ynoa

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    International Watch: Huascar Ynoa

    I wouldn't get my hopes up too much because it doesn't jive with what Doogie reported earlier (that the team wouldn't sign anyone for more than $1 million):

    The Twins are the favorite to sign the young pitcher.

    Ynoa currently ranks as the #17 IFA prospect according to MLB.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    I wouldn't get my hopes up too much because it doesn't jive with what Doogie reported earlier (that the team wouldn't sign anyone for more than $1 million):

    Ynoa currently ranks as the #17 IFA prospect according to MLB.com
    Which would be frustrating considering plenty of teams will likely be going over budget. I hope the Twins surprise us and game the system also. It's likely this sytem is going to have to be remodled after the Cubs and Rangers exposed this loophole, I hope the Twins are smart enough and liberal enough to take advantage while they can.

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Badler connected Ynoa to the Twins over a month ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Which would be frustrating considering plenty of teams will likely be going over budget. I hope the Twins surprise us and game the system also. It's likely this sytem is going to have to be remodled after the Cubs and Rangers exposed this loophole, I hope the Twins are smart enough and liberal enough to take advantage while they can.
    And I hope the Twins sign Ynoa too, but more importantly, I hope they're ethical enough to be one of the teams that's courageous enough to get screwed by the cheaters. We should all be outraged b the cheaters instead of encouraging more dishonesty in our own community.

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    IMO, it isn't cheating. The rules have consequences, if you are willing to pay those, you are playing by the rules (feel better now that we are disagreeing again?).
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    The Twins have a total of $3,686,600 to spend this year. That's a $700k base pool plus four other slots ($2,025,800, $452,100, $305,200, $203,500) that can be traded.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with the Twins not spending big money on any one player. My only issue would be if they didn't use these assets that are available to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    And I hope the Twins sign Ynoa too, but more importantly, I hope they're ethical enough to be one of the teams that's courageous enough to get screwed by the cheaters. We should all be outraged b the cheaters instead of encouraging more dishonesty in our own community.
    Why is it cheating? There's no rule against it, and there are consequences for doing it. If all teams are able to do this it's a level playing field.

    Is it cheating for a middle infielder to drop a boarderline pop up that wasn't called the infield fly rule by umps and then turn a double play? Is it cheating to steal signs? Is it cheating to sign Jason Kubel to a minor league contract so you don't yet have to cut an extra player all while promising him he'll get a 25 man spot regardless of what happens in the spring training?

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    IMO, it isn't cheating. The rules have consequences, if you are willing to pay those, you are playing by the rules (feel better now that we are disagreeing again?).
    Teams are realizing that the consequences aren't that severe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Teams are realizing that the consequences aren't that severe.
    that is a problem with the rules, not the teams following the as written rules.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    that is a problem with the rules, not the teams following the as written rules.
    Yep. And the teams that want to follow the "rules" will provide the push to get the International draft, which is probably what MLB is hoping.

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    The draft is an awful thing......there should, imo, be some hybrid draft/FA thing, imo. All the draft does is lower the income of these players (from the player side).
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Teams are realizing that the consequences aren't that severe.
    Just like a free throw in basketball. You're not supposed to foul another player but the penalty isn't severe enough to stop teams from doing it both unintentionally and intentionally.

  13. This user likes nicksaviking's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    mike wants wins (06-20-2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Why is it cheating? There's no rule against it, and there are consequences for doing it. If all teams are able to do this it's a level playing field.

    Is it cheating for a middle infielder to drop a boarderline pop up that wasn't called the infield fly rule by umps and then turn a double play? Is it cheating to steal signs? Is it cheating to sign Jason Kubel to a minor league contract so you don't yet have to cut an extra player all while promising him he'll get a 25 man spot regardless of what happens in the spring training?
    It is cheating because the reason they put that rule out there was to give the teams that needed players the most (i.e the worst teams) a chance to get better. Thus they created a structure to do that which is now being circumvented.

    To say that there is level playing field is disingenuous as that is the exact reason the rule was created. Big money teams could role over teams with less revenue. So essentially as it stands now nothing has changed. The rule is so terribly flawed that it can't even enforce its intended purpose.

    I agree that a draft stinks for the players but when teams ignore the rules or at the very least the spirit of the rules, what else can you do but a draft?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    The rule is so terribly flawed that it can't even enforce its intended purpose.
    I'm not arguing that it's not flawed, but it's still not breaking the rule. It's simply a bad rule. Until it's changed, the team's that aren't using the flaw to better their team is doing a disservice to their fans and the whole organization. Well except the bean counters.

    I am for a draft, and I hoe the rule is changed. It should be more fair for the have-nots. These guys will still be making more money then they will playing ball on the Latin American ball fields. If they're good, they'll make a lot more. But until there is a draft, or until the rule is changed, I don't want to hear the Twins or any other team who has a vote in this process complain about it. Mock indignation sounds pretty hollow when the only thing harmed is the profit margins.

    And to be clear, I've never heard the Twins complain about this, nor have I heard them say they are against this rule and would not use it to their advantage.

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    Here is one idea:

    Step 1, first 2 weeks of Int'l FA:
    FA for the 10 worst teams. They can spend any amount they want, up to 3 players.

    Step 2, next 2 weeks:
    FA for the next 10 worst teams. They can spend up to $500K per player, but only 1 player.

    Step 3, next week:
    Draft, 1 round, $250K per player max

    Step 4, next 10 months:
    FA, any team can sign any player up to $250K.

    No team can be in step one 2 years in a row......

    The specifics can vary, but there are ways to help the bad teams, and to free up the players to go where they want, for the money they want, if they want.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    It is cheating because the reason they put that rule out there was to give the teams that needed players the most (i.e the worst teams) a chance to get better. Thus they created a structure to do that which is now being circumvented.

    To say that there is level playing field is disingenuous as that is the exact reason the rule was created. Big money teams could role over teams with less revenue. So essentially as it stands now nothing has changed. The rule is so terribly flawed that it can't even enforce its intended purpose.

    I agree that a draft stinks for the players but when teams ignore the rules or at the very least the spirit of the rules, what else can you do but a draft?
    To be fair, can't the big money teams only roll over the lower money team every other year? By going a certain percentage over their signing allotment means that those "cheating" team can't spend over a certain amount the next year. So, the Cubs cant give a signing bonus of over $250k this year because they went so far above their allotment last year. Any team could outbid $250k signing bonus if they wanted to, even the teams with lower revenues.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    To be fair, can't the big money teams only roll over the lower money team every other year? By going a certain percentage over their signing allotment means that those "cheating" team can't spend over a certain amount the next year. So, the Cubs cant give a signing bonus of over $250k this year because they went so far above their allotment last year. Any team could outbid $250k signing bonus if they wanted to, even the teams with lower revenues.
    Sure but the top 5 or 6 revenue teams can switch years and essentially accomplish the same thing. Three of the top revenue teams each year could outbid most of the other teams if they so desired. So the penalty is really no penalty at all. The Yankee's will not be able to bid next year but if they do get a third of the best available talent this year that seems like a pretty large advantage to me.

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    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    Sure but the top 5 or 6 revenue teams can switch years and essentially accomplish the same thing. Three of the top revenue teams each year could outbid most of the other teams if they so desired. So the penalty is really no penalty at all. The Yankee's will not be able to bid next year but if they do get a third of the best available talent this year that seems like a pretty large advantage to me.
    That's a fair assessment, but there's not a guarantee that they will get 1/3 of the talent. Also, higher revenue teams could trade off years, but it's not like they are scheming with each other to keep the lower revenue teams down. The truth is every team in baseball probably has enough money to do the same thing if they wanted to. I'm not saying it's a great system, or that I even like it, but I don't think it is cheating. The teams are following the rules as written, it's just there were some unintended consequences associated with that rule.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

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    So there's a pool of money...but you can exceed it...and the penalties are what?

    Because...of the top 7 prospects listed there, 4 of them, the Yankees are listed as the favorite to sign. They also are favorites for 9 of the top 25. Again...no way they could stay under their pool allotment.

    The Yankees are listed at #17 overall for pool money at $2,193,100.

    It's highly unlikedly they could even sign the top 2 prospects for that individually.

    That said, a lot of prospects have comfort with teams due to the relationships of scouts make (or agreements) with managers of these young kids (these managers get paid off handsomely).

    But I would think MLB could still put a kabosh on that. Be nice if the Twins could snipe in on a few of those Yankee favorites...

    Slot Values:
    http://www.baseballamerica.com/inter...d-slot-values/

    Top IFA prospects:
    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/wat...ayers#list=int
    Last edited by twinsfan34; 06-20-2014 at 04:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I'm not arguing that it's not flawed, but it's still not breaking the rule. It's simply a bad rule. Until it's changed, the team's that aren't using the flaw to better their team is doing a disservice to their fans and the whole organization. Well except the bean counters.

    I am for a draft, and I hoe the rule is changed. It should be more fair for the have-nots. These guys will still be making more money then they will playing ball on the Latin American ball fields. If they're good, they'll make a lot more. But until there is a draft, or until the rule is changed, I don't want to hear the Twins or any other team who has a vote in this process complain about it. Mock indignation sounds pretty hollow when the only thing harmed is the profit margins.

    And to be clear, I've never heard the Twins complain about this, nor have I heard them say they are against this rule and would not use it to their advantage.
    It is not breaking the rule as written but there is a thing humans are supposed to have or at least try and develop and those things are called morals. How do we know the Cubs\Yankees are cheating? Well the intention of the rule was to help teams with low revenues who typically aren't that good get better by having a shot to sign some of the top talent to get better. Baseball agrees that this is good for the game so that it is easier for teams that have been bad for a long time to get better quickly and keep their fans interested etc.

    So along comes a team that in the past typically wins their division every year and they are willing to spend whatever it takes to add more talent to their system effectively negating the advantage that lower revenue ,poor performing teams were supposed to get. Is being last in line and then budding to the front of the line something you want to encourage? I don't think so as then why have a line at all. Is it something every team can do? If it were then there would be no need for the rule in the first place.

    Here's a none baseball example. There is no law that punishes you if you sleep with another woman and yet I bet your wife would consider that cheating. Cheating is as much about intention as it is about the written rule. The Cubs cheated and the Yankee's will be cheaters this year. They are what they are there is no way to sugar coat it. They know they are cheating and the world knows they are cheating and they don't really care, but they are cheaters.

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