View Poll Results: Should the Twins move on with Ron Gardenhire?

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Thread: Gardy's Club Influence

  1. #21
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    Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers.

    Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers.

    Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,
    Haha, yeah people like Seth and Aaron Gleeman were pretty adamant about Inge's terribleness. Note that in G and G 39, I believe, Aaron claims that Inge has been terrible for the last five years. That is a blatant falsity. Last year he was bad. 2008 he was below average. Before and in-between? Good. Certainly better than Drew Butera. That is the true replacement here. My god. What a damn joke.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Don't get me started on this team signing actual legitimate MLB players instead of assclowns like Clete Thomas. Derrek Lee, Bobby Abreu, Vlad Guerrero, Brandon Inge. Yeah . . . no value there . . . let's sign Clete Thomas . . . and what's actually worse . . . after Thomas is terrible, allowing him to further pollute the farm system in Rochester. My god.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    In that case, I yield to your obviously vast level of expertise when it comes to major-league managers and their impact.

    These are adult, millionaire athletes we're talking about. The notion that they need managers to teach them how to play and make sure they try their best is silly. By the time they've reached the majors their fundamentals (or lack thereof) are ingrained.


    Yes, I've watched most of the games. I also watched most of the games from 2002-2010 when the Twins (under Gardy) were renowned as one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the game. I'd venture to say that the issues now are more related to personnel than the manager randomly forgetting how to coach.
    Well, if you really think that once a guy gets the majors he's reached the pinacle of his game and can't learn any more than I can't dissuade you from that thought. I think that there is still plenty of learning to happen. From time to time I watch some of the shows on after the Twins games focusing on players like Blyleven, Carew, etc. It seems like the often mention the positive impact a manager had on their careers, I know Carew mentioned Billy Martin the other night. I also think there were many players that played under Tom Kelly that indicated he was a positive influence on their careers. So if you think the manager has nothing to do with it, so be it, but I think most major leaguers have a different opinion. You also conveniently cut out my point that the biggest problem we have is lack of talent, which would seem to agree with your statement. Baseball players really aren't that different from most the rest of us, sure they have a specific talent, and probably are more competitive, but at the end of the day they still can and should continue to learn, adapt and improve, just like those of us in the work force have to. Often we improve significantly when we have a leader or mentor that takes us under their wing and teaches us. Even though we were already vastly qualified to do the job we were hired to do. I guess you think that doesn't happen when a guy gets to the majors though, and that the Manager can't and shouldn't do these things. It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?
    At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

    The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

    A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

    Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

    Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.
    I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

    I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

    I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.
    And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    I never really put much thought into the way I wrote the question. I could see how you could get confused. I meant "go forward" or to keep him in the same position.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

    The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

    A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

    Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

    Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.
    Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.
    I completely agree.

  12. #32
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whydidnt View Post
    Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.
    I didn't say "no impact", I said "minimal impact" and that refers to the outcome of the game once it starts. Simply put, they don't play. I agree fully that Gardenhire and many managers don't deserve the heaps of praise they get when their teams win and most don't deserve the heaps of abuse when they lose. Obviously wherever the manager's influence mainly lies Gardy had an awful lot of it in the past decade, what's changed other than the player's.

    Yeah, Gardy threw Valencia under the bus enough to play him in 154 games last year. If he had a real choice I'm sure it would have been to throw him in front of it at 100 mph.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    I guess I'm wondering if it just makes sense to make a change (after the season) for the sake of freshness. Gardy has done well (I know some question that) but he has been there longer than any other current serving manager (with the exception of Sciosia). Perhaps his approach and "voice" has just gotten a bit stale. I am a minister by trade, and I see a parallel with serving a church. While there are many pastors who serve 20,30, even 40 years in one place, most of the research shows that after 10-15 years in one place you do hit a point of diminishing returns. It's easy to fall into habits and patterns that may or may not work for the future; it's easy to get comfortable and get stale. It's good for the church and for the pastor to move on in different directions, so both can continue to grow.

  14. #34
    and where is gardenhires talent? in az. colorado, washington, detroit, chicago, LA, and wherever else the front office decided to send them. let me guess joe torre when he managed the yankees couldnt squeeze anymore talent out of his players either!?!?! put the blame where the blame is due... THE FRONT OFFICE!!!

  15. #35
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    I agree that the Twins awful record is much better explained by a lack of talent than poor managing.

    However, I think manager's can have more than a negligible impact of the team. I mean if it makes no difference one way or the other, why not hire a fan off the street? I'm sure many posters here would be willing to do the job for a mere fraction of Gardy's salary.

    Manager's make in-game decisions that obviously impact the outcome.

    But there's all the other stuff too. They've got to make sure that guys don't get too high after wins and too low after losses. They've got to stand up to their players to umpires and the press. They've got to maintain control of the clubhouse. It's impossible to quantify this impact, and I'm certainly not close enough to it to measure it.

    But I think we've seen situations where players responded very differently to one manager than another. The Orioles seemed to taked on a whole new attitude when Showalter came in and took over. Meanwhile, in Houston not loo long ago, you really got the sense that a bunch of players couldn't wait for Cecil Cooper to get canned.

    Again, I don't know how much this stuff really comes into play, but I think it's more than trivial.
    Last edited by one_eyed_jack; 05-11-2012 at 01:57 PM.

  16. #36
    i agree with that part but houston and baltimore didnt make any moves like the front office has done with the twins.

  17. #37
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    If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.

  18. #38
    For the most part, good teams will win in spite of what the manager does or does not do. That said, the manager does impact games by appropriately jerking a pitcher or leaving him in too long, or by favoring a player by playing him when he should not be in the lineup - (see Danny Valencia, Trevor Plouff, Matt Tolbert, et al). I also do not think that managers, especially Gardy, have a lot to say about who is sent down, or called up, but mostly try to play with the hand they are dealt. He baffles me with his moves at times, but I believe that he is a pretty good manager who could be a bit more stern with some of the younger players at times. His infatuation (or maybe his unbridled fear of no DH) with Butera is maddening, but hey - it's his team to run, and he does a pretty good job.

    Now, when the fire him or keep him question comes up about Terry Ryan, I'll have a lot more to say!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    If the team fails you can't fire the team. The manager takes the hit, no matter if it is his fault or not. That's baseball, that's all sports.
    That's usually true, though it hasn't been here. TK would have been fired years before he hung it up if it were.

    It also doesn't really tell us anything about the impact it has on a team. It's really more a result of contracts getting bigger and CBAs more complex. Trades are much harder to make than they used to be in all sports. So when a team starts losing and the front office wants to shake things up, they fire the coach or manager - not because it's the best change they can make, but it's the easiest.

  20. #40
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    125 Losses

    When I see Gardenhire - I see a guy who presided over a 99 loss debacle only to be followed by a season heading towards a 125 loss hell. Have to imagine that many fans AND many players are seeing the same thing. The guy was always over-rated and he was a dismal leader in innumerable playoff games. Don't think he has the character to resign so, pretty please, fire his ass.

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